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I'f I have some Thunderfire Cannons in my detachment, and enact the Tactical or Devastator doctrines: does that mean that I can re-roll the scatter (both the 2D6 and scatter dice) because I then will be able to re-roll 1's during that shooting phase?

This is a much debated topic, you will need to discuss with your opponent simply to prevent avoidable arguments during your game.
One should create a poll on 'Blast Weapons and re-rolls of 1' and see how the community currently stands.

JinxDragon wrote:
One should create a poll on 'Blast Weapons and re-rolls of 1' and see how the community currently stands.

Divided.

We had that topic a week or so ago and in the end it comes down to a long chain of associations - at least from what I understood (so please correct me if I got it wrong):

* The Gets Hot rules allow special rules that reroll on 1s to also reroll the Gets Hot result
* Scatter does not allow this by itself
* The Twin-Linked rule has a paragraph on how it allows Scatter to be rerolled on a scatter result
* Since both Twin-Linked and anything that rerolls on just 1s is both eligible for Gets Hot rerolling, they must be the same for "rerolling anything but actual to-hit rolls"
* Therefore, if Twin-Linked allows Scatter rerolls and Gets Hot allows 1s to reroll the Gets Hot, you are also allowed to reroll Scatter if you have a "1s rerollable" special rule.

Whether or not you accept this is up to you, I personally disagree with the conclusion and wouldn't allow you to reroll scatter dice with a "reroll 1s" ability.

nekooni wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
One should create a poll on 'Blast Weapons and re-rolls of 1' and see how the community currently stands.

Divided.

We had that topic a week or so ago and in the end it comes down to a long chain of associations - at least from what I understood (so please correct me if I got it wrong):

* The Gets Hot rules allow special rules that reroll on 1s to also reroll the Gets Hot result
* Scatter does not allow this by itself
* The Twin-Linked rule has a paragraph on how it allows Scatter to be rerolled on a scatter result
* Since both Twin-Linked and anything that rerolls on just 1s is both eligible for Gets Hot rerolling, they must be the same for "rerolling anything but actual to-hit rolls"
* Therefore, if Twin-Linked allows Scatter rerolls and Gets Hot allows 1s to reroll the Gets Hot, you are also allowed to reroll Scatter if you have a "1s rerollable" special rule.

Whether or not you accept this is up to you, I personally disagree with the conclusion and wouldn't allow you to reroll scatter dice with a "reroll 1s" ability.

Yeah, it's a case of how far "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" goes.

For some it is ultra-conservative, and wouldn't even allow BS 6+ to work, much less Preferred Enemy or Combat Doctrines. Personally, I think they are just trying to find problems and borrow trouble, and this is from someone who tries to find problems.

For myself, I see just the ability to re-roll To Hit, and it allows Blast to reroll if it does not get a Hit, and does not require such deep questions on how a Scatter Die rolls a 1.

Charistoph wrote:

Yeah, it's a case of how far "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" goes.

For some it is ultra-conservative, and wouldn't even allow BS 6+ to work, much less Preferred Enemy or Combat Doctrines. Personally, I think they are just trying to find problems and borrow trouble, and this is from someone who tries to find problems.

For myself, I see just the ability to re-roll To Hit, and it allows Blast to reroll if it does not get a Hit, and does not require such deep questions on how a Scatter Die rolls a 1.

Well this is why I really dislike the stubborn "but I'm right and you're wrong/ultra-conservative/looking for problems" spiel without actually explaining your argument. I claimed - which I now know was wrong - that Scatter / Blast didn't allow any rerolling for itself. Which it does:

Blast wrote:Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast
weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

So the premise is different from what I stated, I can get on-board with the "PE and the like give Scatter rerolls" under these circumstances - since Gets Hot doesn't present the list as something "special", just that it clarifies what "ability to reroll" means.

The premise that having the ability to "re roll to hit" is an equivalent statement/ability to "re roll ones to hit" is one fraught with many problems.

the most obvious and damning one is that saying there is no difference between the two is objectively incorrect.

the other is that there is nothing to suggest we should even equate these two different terms in the first place.

thirdly, it makes re rolls of one for blast just as poweful as twin linking or re rolling to hit, when RAI obviously is that just re rolling ones shouldnt be as good.

Part of the problem is the naysayers want to allow things like Prescience or Guide to work, when, with the exception of Ammo Runts, every re-roll has a condition - either you can only re-roll 1's, you can only re-roll failed To hit rolls, etc.

Twin-linked (despite having a requirement of failing a To hit roll) is explicitly given permission to work. Ammo Runts (by their very nature of allowing you to re-roll To Hit rolls) also work. Everything else is all or nothing.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Yeah, it's a case of how far "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" goes.

For some it is ultra-conservative, and wouldn't even allow BS 6+ to work, much less Preferred Enemy or Combat Doctrines. Personally, I think they are just trying to find problems and borrow trouble, and this is from someone who tries to find problems.

For myself, I see just the ability to re-roll To Hit, and it allows Blast to reroll if it does not get a Hit, and does not require such deep questions on how a Scatter Die rolls a 1.

Well this is why I really dislike the stubborn "but I'm right and you're wrong/ultra-conservative/looking for problems" spiel without actually explaining your argument. I claimed - which I now know was wrong - that Scatter / Blast didn't allow any rerolling for itself.

I wasn't referencing you, exactly. It is for some that unless the failure does happen, there is no ability to reroll, period, even with references to examples that state otherwise like BS 6+ in Gets Hot or for Twin-Linked in any case. If anything, I was referencing some whose position was for a far tighter restriction than your preference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
The premise that having the ability to "re roll to hit" is an equivalent statement/ability to "re roll ones to hit" is one fraught with many problems.

the most obvious and damning one is that saying there is no difference between the two is objectively incorrect.

the other is that there is nothing to suggest we should even equate these two different terms in the first place.

thirdly, it makes re rolls of one for blast just as poweful as twin linking or re rolling to hit, when RAI obviously is that just re rolling ones shouldnt be as good.

Maybe, maybe not. All it asks for is an ability. It doesn't specify a full ability or exclude a partial ability, just that it has it.

If I ask for people who can stand up, see Lightning and hear Thunder, am I asking for Capt America only, or am I willing to take the teenage Steve Rogers? The answer is I am willing to take even teenage Steve Rogers and I do not need Capt America.

Your example is incorrect though as far as English works.


You have permission to drink a six pack of beer,


and

You have permission to drink one beer out of a six pack




if something references your ability to drink a whole six pack of beer, does that automatically grant permission when you only have permission to drink one beer.

Would be a correct analogy to 1's vs hits.

However, if something refereed to just "your ability to drink beer," would you be required to drink the entire six-pack?
That is the problem here, it uses the words 'ability to Re-roll' without informing us what constitutes an ability to re-roll.

Let's also not forget that only the TechMarine Gunner has Chapter Tactics special rule, not the TFC model, so I would argue (even against my own benefit) that only his weapons, with the harness, get the benefits but not the gun itself.

This is why the gun itself does not get a FNP roll with Iron Hands CTs.

Isn't this the same as (all) vehicles without Chapter Tactics?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's also not forget that only the TechMarine Gunner has Chapter Tactics special rule, not the TFC model, so I would argue (even against my own benefit) that only his weapons, with the harness, get the benefits but not the gun itself.

This is why the gun itself does not get a FNP roll with Iron Hands CTs.

Isn't this the same as (all) vehicles without Chapter Tactics?

I think for shooting purposes firing the Thunderfire would benefit, as the Gunner is still the firing model rather than the Thunderfire Cannon shooting as such.

Feel No Pain is different as it would depend on whether the Thunderfire Cannon has a wound allocated to it or the Gunner.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's also not forget that only the TechMarine Gunner has Chapter Tactics special rule, not the TFC model, so I would argue (even against my own benefit) that only his weapons, with the harness, get the benefits but not the gun itself.

This is why the gun itself does not get a FNP roll with Iron Hands CTs.

Isn't this the same as (all) vehicles without Chapter Tactics?

The Techmarine is who is shooting the weapon, that's why you use his BS and everything else he brings along - including CTs.

And not ALL vehicles lack the CT rule: All vehicles that shouldn't be vehicles in the first place do have the CT rule - Dreadnoughts.