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I saw this, and while it is a valiant attempt at defending a company, it does fall short on most points.

MongooseMatt wrote:

All my favourite characters are gone!
Just about all Chaos characters are still present.

So one of sixteen? different factions has their characters present? And all my old models are now totally out of scale? (GW seems to be making all the AoS and newer 40k stuff scaled up to 32mm or higher to prevent the sale of aftermarket pieces or alternative models).

Age of Sigmar is failing
No one (except a few at GW HQ) knows anything about how the game has been selling. One store, or even a bunch of Internet forums, do not a firm basis make for this conclusion. The first clue we will get will be next year in GW’s financial reports, and we may not really know for 2-3 years.

It really is okay to wait and reserve judgement for later. There is no requirement to make a decision on this immediately!

Well, except that there are dozens of other games out there that are doing really well right now, and gamers are very much "now" people, and all they see are dusty AoS boxes on shelves. More failure now means more failure in the future as the thing never sells. Most people are becoming invested in other games and even if AoS becomes something near a game in a few years it won't help. Too little, too late.

I'd love to hear your opinion on other games out there that are doing really well that are objectively better games - Kings of War, SAGA, WMH, Bolt Action, etc that have a lot more going for them. Why wait for Age of Sigmar to become a real game with more than two factions when you have so many other options?

And regarding people not buying Fantasy, or the perception of that - after 8th Edition fantasy released, GW put out two army books in 18 months. That decided lack of support and lack of understanding that the game was priced too high, yet releasing more and more expensive models and repacks made the game not profitable enough. Yet even the Fantasy End Times books sold out quickly, while AOS books have been pulled from the site for not selling, lol.

There is no balance in Age of Sigmar
There is, but it is in your hands.

Even if we leave the ‘dick issue’ to one side (basically, don’t be one, and have as much consideration for your opponent’s fun as your own), there are now a handful of points systems available for AoS, and they are all community-made. As time goes on, they will become more accurate and more balanced. They are there and available for your use right now.

It is no secret that you don’t have to go far on a gaming forum to see people complaining about points imbalances in Fantasy Battle or 40k, and in these rants someone always bemoans the fact that GW does not engage in community-led pointing for units. After all, if thousands of people are submitting results, and points costs are updated, they will be far more accurate, right?

Well, that is what you have, right now, for Age of Sigmar. What is more, if you do not agree with one system (a certain points value for a unit will not be agreeable for everyone, you can be sure of that), then there are already others to try.

If competitive gaming is your thing, tournament organisers are now free to pick the points systems they feel work for them best – or simply come up with their own…

Given time, what can be more balanced than that?

Why does a company with 'Games' in the title of it make their customer write games? Why is it so easy for dozens of other companies to write games with point values? Judge Dredd (amazing book, btw. Haven't had a chance to play yet) has 'points values' does it not?

By taking the points out of Age of Sigmar (and by the way they present scenarios), there is no ‘standard’ way of playing. You are being forced out of the comfort zone, and this is where the designers want you. They want you to experience Warhammer in a variety of formats that will keep you gaming for, well, forever.

Are you sure they're not just being lazy, skimping on $$ for rules (what, two guys salaries per year?) and FAQs and erratas so they can spend 1.7 million dollars on the FW website? lol

Games Workshop does not care about gamers
Games Workshop is a company. It is incapable of caring about anything.

However, having spent some time with some of the design studio at GW HQ in the past, I can tell you that there are individuals there who very much do care about gamers. They are extremely enthusiastic about games (and yes, they play games other than those produced by GW!), and they see their job as communicating that enthusiasm to you, the gamer.

This is a huge cop-out. They've cared about gamers in the past. Look at any white dwarf pre-~2008 and you'll see that. Check this out when you have a chance - http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/warhammer-40000-open-day-in-detail.html - an easy way to tell that they just don't care about anything but $$$ for their investors (like their former CEO). "The hobby" is purchasing Citadel miniatures, not painting and playing.

Not to mention that most any other game company out there cares intensely about their customer. Privateer Press, Warlord Games, Mantic, Battlefront, Hawk, Spartan, all these people have Facebook pages, interact with their customers, genuinely provide value, and don't just see the people purchasing their stuff as a walking wallet. GW has gone astray and desperately needs to be purchased by a better company to get it back to what it used to be.

MongooseMatt wrote:
We already know it is more than this - as I said earlier, Tyrion and Teclis still look to be a thing. Some will disappear, some will pop back up - we can wait, surely, especially as we have the Warscrolls to use them.

I mean, there are definitely people who can wait, but I'm not going to slog through five different $80 hardbacks or whatever to get there. I already did that with End Times.

This debate popped up in my own gaming group.

The Dryads and Plague Monks got re-released and are still the same size, suggesting that maybe the scale creep is not happening. The Stormcasts, as we all know, are supposed to be big, honking guys. Same with the Blood Warriors, Given all that, I would be surprised if things like Bloodletters and Plaguebearers were redesigned any time soon, so we might assume they are staying the same.

The point of contention, I think, would be the Bloodreavers. Are they normal guys suffering from scale creep? Or have they been pumped up by the power of Khorne?

I am not really convinced either way as there is no good evidence for scale creep or not, but I am leaning slightly towards not, primarily because of the Dryads and Plague Monks.

As mentioned before, it really is okay not to make a firm judgement until we know more

* Another argument for not is that scale has not changed in 40k in recent releases, and I don't think they would run two different scales (LotR was a separate thing) *

I would say the re-release was just to capitalize on their old models still being in a box in a warehouse in Nottingham or China. Any future releases for AoS are gonna be HUGE GUYS like the Sigmarines or the bloodguys. The bloodguys definitely are a lot larger.

Re: 40k - not so much the 'ground scale' in so much as the 'model scale'. Every army is now getting huge $150 kits and multiple $75 kits. It becomes increasingly harder to find alternative models or parts for these selections. They've f'd around with the base size for half the line of models. The new Ghostkeel thing is on its own base size.

We only see part of the picture. For example, you see dusty boxes on shelves and conclude failure. On the other hand, for the past couple of years our own GW sales (a little sideline we have) saw a Fantasy sale once in a blue moon over the past couple of years. Since AoS was released, we have seen them increase by two orders of magnitude and cannot keep the starter set on the shelves, nor the terrain. Sales of the separate Stormcast sets have been brisk, and both the Sylvaneth and Pestilens boxes disappeared quickly (actually, in the interests of honesty, we still have a Plague Furnace on the shelf).

Speaking as someone in the 'trade' (as opposed to simple retailer), I would be faintly surprised if the AoS starter's sales have eclipsed the sales of all those other games that you say are doing really well. Just my opinion, but a semi-informed one.

GW really is that large.

The KoW kickstarter did amazing and the Warpath kickstarter did a half a million dollars. The AoS starter would have to sell over 4,000 kits to get to a half a million dollars. I wonder if it even did 2,000 And you didn't address the lack of support from GW for Fantasy - two army books in eighteen months after launching eighth edition.

Ack. Okay, I am going to break one of my own rules here and discuss the games of other companies (GW games do not count for this rule because they are too large and really don't care what I say ). However, I want everyone to understand that this is just my opinion as a gamer, and nothing else.

Kings of War: When I first saw this game, I thought it was the answer to everything, and I actually told Ronnie that if I were to design a fantasy mass-battle game, I would have come up with exactly the same movement system. However, it did not survive playing. We played it a few times, but hit an issue with armies that did not possess missile weapons (two armies advance towards each other and stop, because neither wants to get into charge range of the other and hand a big advantage over). I also feel, in terms of background, KOW lacks... heart. This may well change over time - after all, the Old World and Imperium were not built in a day - but it is an issue right now. The same applies to most of their minis - though I happily collected a Vampire Counts and Orc army composed mostly of Mantic rank and file. Their zombies are a very good deal.

SAGA: Looked at this but, to be honest, I found their dice system a bit 'gimmicky'. No reflection on the game, this is a personal thing on my part - I hate counters and special dice.

WMH: Never played it, I have to say I collected a little force a while ago (I want to say Khador, is that right? The red guys...), but the background just never appealed to me. I also have a little problem with the whole idea of 'play like you have a pair' but, again, that is my issue and not a reflection on the game.

Bolt Action: Love it. I have nearly a whole regiment of Soviets painted up, though they desperately need some transports (one cannot ride on tanks alone!) and one can always use more artillery. Big thumbs up.

I'm glad to see you providing opinion - but don't you think saying Mantica lacks heart... i mean, does anyone actually really know what AoS is even about? Some dudes fighting in heaven until they die and then being reborn? I'd definitely recommend SAGA - it is a sword and shield game (like AOS) that actually does require a ton of strategy in movement, fatigue, and the battle board. 'Play like you have a pair' is definitely overblown on the webs.

Again, I cannot really defend, or even speak to, the Games Days - there certainly seems to be something 'else' happening there. In this department, I can only speak about members of the design team, past and present, whom I have known personally. |nything else would be anecdotal, and we don't like doing that

That is how they survive. It is how my company survives (right now we have a major playtest going on that we have engaged the community in). However, I can see that this kind of attention might not scale up to a company the size of GW.

In which case, we all have a choice. We can enjoy the (absolutely superb) models GW do, and engage in universes we have 'lived' in for decades in some cases, or we can enjoy the games of companies that have a more human face.

Or we can do both.

* Not saying GW cannot or should not be more human in its approach, only saying I can understand why it is more difficult for them *

I mean, that kind of attention could absolutely scale up to a company the size of GW. They're a niche hobby company, not the IRS. Their lunch is getting eaten by dozens of other companies day in and day out and these other companies are fighting for that market share while GW is trying to tell people what they want. They truly believe that people buy their models to buy their models, not to play games.

MongooseMatt wrote:
Well, on a macro level, I think we do - it is Warhammer, which comes with a great deal of weight and expectation behind it (yes, I know we can argue about whether it is actually Warhammer ). For example, they release a Khorne Bloodbound book - I have reasonable expectations as to what I will find in it. If we talk about Slaanesh or Tzeentch or Orcs (Orruks), we basically know what we are going to get.

KOW does not really have that kind of pull yet for me.

I guess the point is that it isn't Warhammer, and it has no weight behind it. From your example, Slaanesh isn't even around anymore. And we don't know if anybody else is, either, because all we've seen are bloodguys and Sigmarines with a lot of really abstract lore about heavens and fighting and gods and 'realms'.

Who knows? They might be right. You and I only see our little corner of the universe.

I honestly don't know what the answer to that is. The trouble is, no one here does.

Would you try to sell Judge Dredd models without a good game behind it? Even with the pretty great background and lots of interest from reading comics, movies, etc. I doubt I would try to do that. And we're told that they do no market research, so they end up at places like this. I think we can likely give ourselves a little more of a nod than 'who knows?'. Does GW really deserve the benefit of the doubt here?

MongooseMatt wrote:

Heh

I am not sure there is any actual blame - sometimes stuff just happens.
...
You can say that if more people had bought WFB, it would not have gone away. However, the reasons for that not happening are up for discussion and (unfortunately) there is no solid evidence for any argument. All we know for certain is that it was not performing.

The natural reaction is to blame GW because, well, that is what people like to do Mind you, we should also bear in mind that product lines have finite life spans and WFB had a very, very good run. * Shrug * Maybe it was just its time.

Releasing only two supplements to the rules in 18 months after a new edition, constantly raising prices to an untenable level, creating rules to benefit the player if they use more and more models... yet most of the time in the AOS defense threads the players get blamed for not buying enough.

 pox wrote:
for good or for bad, GW is really my only gaming option.

That's rough man

Edit: there are quite a few 'negative' threads in the 40k gen pop area too. It's just not a Pollyanna time for GW games.

 Sqorgar wrote:
But AoS isn't the reason WHFB was destroyed. It's more like the phoenix that rose from WHFB's ashes. Regardless of what they think about AoS, pretty much everybody agrees that WHFB was dying or dead long before it was killed. Even then, here's the world's tiniest violin playing for you. Find whatever closure you need to move on, then do it. Personally, I think giving AoS a fair chance and potentially coming to enjoy it is the best closure you'll ever get.

It was injured, for sure, but could have been saved. Instead they shoved it off the fourth floor window and all their customers with it. Most people are aiming for closure by playing other games.

WFB was always human-centric in how it framed things. AoS has a certain mythological feel tonit for me, scattered peoples remembering the golden age, the world that was when gods walked amongst men, the world tree of realms.
I don't really know how to explain it, but it strikes a chord for me.

And its very hard to relate to for many people. Do sigmarines eat or talk? Are they just statues? When a sigmarine dies, does anyone really care?

 Sqorgar wrote:
So they had two options. They could launch a sequel, which could allow them to appeal to new players and keep the old players around (which they did, and it didn't work), or they could move outside of their tightly controlled distribution system to reach a wider audience, which wouldn't work because of the hobby aspect. If they wanted to gain new players, they would need to release cheaper figures in places like Barnes and Nobles that were probably pre-assembled and pre-painted (meaning they'd compete against X-Wing Miniatures, which would also anger FFG who does all of GW's board games).

Or they could make the game more affordable, offer a skirmish mode as introduction to the real game, and offer actual support for the game.

Frankly, launching a sequel to WHFB was a good idea because it did draw new blood (like me) who preferred skirmish systems and were drawn to the idea of a new miniatures game with heavy support, but which didn't have 30 years of baggage with it.

And get rid of the existing fanbase who did like the '30 years of baggage' as well as the way the game was played.

And second, playing another game isn't closure. It's a rebound. It's like dating a girl who looks like your ex-girlfriend.

Its like dating a girl who might look like your ex-girlfriend, but doesn't throw you down the stairs.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Making the game affordable and better support would make existing players happy - it wouldn't bring in new players.

That's uh, yeah, citation needed. Cost was a HUGE factor in a lot of people not playing the game.

Since 40k is doing well, price is obviously not the objection

Lower volume of sales every year for years definitely doesn't show that.

But they didn't get rid of the baggage. It's all there and the way the AoS universe is set up, almost all of it could potentially come back at some point. It's just not relevant to the initial release of the game.

I mean, I don't really see Beastmen coming out of the Drakwald any time soon. They recreated everything so they can copyright every single piece of it. Chapterhouse touched a nerve for sure.

 Sqorgar wrote:


Long story short (too late), the price is the last thing a new player (or old player) really looks at when deciding to play a new game. I think GW knows this too, which explains their prices for AoS units.

So, GW would have to reduce the number of figures needed for the game in order to reduce the price... which they did with Age of Sigmar.

Our shop has about five different minis games people can play. The newbs usually look around at all of them. If you think price is truly the last thing (and not even the second most important) then uh, you definitely are a GW customer.

GW did reduce the number of models in boxes, that's for sure. Instead of 10 guys for 50 bucks you now get five blood guys for 50 bucks. You don't need 100 of them now until your buddies want to play more. As always, they'll emphasize collections in their writing. Collections aren't one box of blood guys.

Re: buying only citadel kit tools, someone who drops 150 bucks on blood guys and Sigmarines would almost never buy 30 dollar clippers and 30 dollar primer and 15 dollar glue, just doesn't happen. Dudes are trying to skimp on everything to even afford starting the game.

 Sqorgar wrote:
They will if that's the only option immediately available to them, and Warhammer stores make damn sure it is.

There is one GW store in my state of 10 million people, and at least 15-20 independent stores. Add to that 'other hobby' shops and craft stores and it makes GW stores pretty much irrelevant, especially so when they close when the dude can't work that day, lol.