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1000 Marines is quite tiny, I believe Dorn said that he'd rather have one astartes or 100 good men. In the eyes of a Primarch 1 marine = 100 Hardened Guardsmen (Roughly).

But instead of 100 marines per company, how about 1000 marines per company, 10,000 marines per chapter?

Just wondering if my headcanon is feasible.

While you may like 1000 better, it kinda splits from canon. The fluff is pretty clear that the Codex Astartes calls for 100 marines per company, not 1000.

Arguably, that 1,000 doesn't include scouts, and may not include specialists like Librarians, Chaplains, Techmarines and Apothecaries. Also, some chapters play fast and loose with the Codex or ignore it. Space Wolves more or less thumb their nose at the Codex, while the Black Templars (who number close to 10,000 by some estimates) are a scattered fleet based chapter whose numbers are hard to estimate.

The 10k-ish numbers you're considering approach the pre-Heresy Legions, not M41 Chapters. That scale of Space Marine organization was specifically outlawed with the post-Heresy Guilliman reorganization.

100 troopers is close to a traditional earth infantry company in size, almost regardless of nation. 1000 is somewhere between a battalion and a brigade. If you went with 1000 tradition would demand you call it something other than a Company. Pre-Heresy it would be called a Chapter (not coincidentally).

Are you hung up on Dorn's stated preference for Marines over other troops? It may well be hyperbole, and not a statement of doctrine.

If you're concerned that 1,000 Space Marines (or less) really shouldn't be able to conquer a planet alone, regardless of how bada** they are... Well, I agree with you there. But then, 10,000 Marines wouldn't be much better for conquering or pacifying an entire world with a population in the billions (in my opinion).

My two cents.

That fits my headcanon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Warboos Gorhack: On organisation: it would be a simple as 10 Marines to a Squad, 10 Squads to a Company, 10 Companies to a Battalion, 5 Battalions to a Division, 2 Divisions to a Chapter.

The question is not one of Organization. It's about what the Imperium (and the Inquisition) will tolerate. The post-Heresy reorg was intended to prevent the over-concentration of force, specifically Space Marine combat power, in a few sets of hands. It was meant to prevent another Heresy.

Though to be fair the Imperial Army was reorganized at the same time, and the Regiments were split from the fleets in order to further split combat power.

The Inquisition has already been sniffing around the Black Templars because of the alleged size of the Chapter.

My two cents.

The Inquisition doesn't really seem to be that interested in enforcing the Codex Astartes. Any chapter could have their numbers swell, within reason, and as long as they were still fulfilling their duties it is likely that nobody would care.

The rumors about the size of the Black Templars have been around for thousands of years and the Inquisition has never, AFAIK, actually come down on them for it.

I concur. The point of the 1000 marine restriction wasn't a hard cap that no chapter can cross without instantly being struck down. It was designed that if a chapter master went traitor he couldn't take that many others with him. Though every fallen legion had loyalists for the most part as the primarch went so did his legion. The goal was to mitigate that possibility, especially because Horus took not just marines over to chaos but large chunks of the imperial army and mechanicus

 Orblivion wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really seem to be that interested in enforcing the Codex Astartes. Any chapter could have their numbers swell, within reason, and as long as they were still fulfilling their duties it is likely that nobody would care.

The rumors about the size of the Black Templars have been around for thousands of years and the Inquisition has never, AFAIK, actually come down on them for it.

Partly because the fleets keep sodding off in all sorts of crusader-y directions

headcnnon? headcannon?!? i will shoot you with my headcannon! i just discovered a new word 4 my vocabulary

Yes 1000 is very small, because GW lacks a concept of scale.

I would also find 10,000 to make more sense. But alas, the Codex is taken as law these days.

There are a lot of scale issues in 40k.

If you interpret the fluff as 100 line marines, and don’t count the support staff, drivers, etc, chapters can get close to 2,000 marines. But if you want to go bigger then that, you need to either go back to 30k, break with established cannon, or find a loophole (ala Black Templars)

When they were legions the numbers made much more sense. Most legions were 80,000-100,000.

Even given the capabilities of an as rates they need to at least have ten thousand strong chapters to really do anything in realistic terms. But this is moot as 40k isn't meant to be realistic

He said 10 men, not 100.

Actually, its 100 Marines for 1000 normal men, so uh, same ratio

Here's the quote

Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops

(and a source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines#D) No mention of how competent the troops are, either.

People say that 1,000 Marines is too few to accomplish anything significant. I disagree.

If you look at modern combat operations (for example, the Israelis in the Yom Kippur war or the Americans in Operation Iraqi Freedom [aka Cobra II], or even the Germans in WWII against the Russians) relatively small forces can completely throw a much larger force off balance and annihilate it, either on the offense or the defense. If you make decisions faster than your opponent, move quicker, and have better equipment you can manhandle three, five, even ten times your numbers. And that's just normal people fighting normal people, not super soldiers fighting hopelessly outmatched conscripts or mindless aliens.

If Marines in the 'reality' of 40K are as good at fighting as they the game lore implies (and not merely slightly better than average as the game rules represent) then there's nothing absurd about expecting a chapter of Marines to defeat a force tens of thousands strong. In fact, the Marines would probably be able to do even more than that, and troops densities are bound to be lower in future galaxy than what you would expect in Western Europe or Mesopotamia. In that situation, with enemy troops spread thin to cover a vast expanse of territory, the Marines would be able to pick and choose their fights and disrupt a portion of the enemy at a time.

Of course, the Marines lack the numbers to absorb losses or to secure territory once the enemy has been beaten. All they can really do is roll through the enemy and smash apart his coherency, rendering him incapable of organized resistance. This is a temporary state of affairs and the enemy will rally once the Marines move on to their next target, so that's why you need the Imperial Guard to follow up the Marines and also launch diversionary attacks on less important parts of the battlefield - the Marines kill the enemy, the Guard makes sure they stay dead.

 Saber wrote:
People say that 1,000 Marines is too few to accomplish anything significant. I disagree.

If you look at modern combat operations (for example, the Israelis in the Yom Kippur war or the Americans in Operation Iraqi Freedom [aka Cobra II], or even the Germans in WWII against the Russians) relatively small forces can completely throw a much larger force off balance and annihilate it, either on the offense or the defense. If you make decisions faster than your opponent, move quicker, and have better equipment you can manhandle three, five, even ten times your numbers. And that's just normal people fighting normal people, not super soldiers fighting hopelessly outmatched conscripts or mindless aliens.

If Marines in the 'reality' of 40K are as good at fighting as they the game lore implies (and not merely slightly better than average as the game rules represent) then there's nothing absurd about expecting a chapter of Marines to defeat a force tens of thousands strong. In fact, the Marines would probably be able to do even more than that, and troops densities are bound to be lower in future galaxy than what you would expect in Western Europe or Mesopotamia. In that situation, with enemy troops spread thin to cover a vast expanse of territory, the Marines would be able to pick and choose their fights and disrupt a portion of the enemy at a time.

Of course, the Marines lack the numbers to absorb losses or to secure territory once the enemy has been beaten. All they can really do is roll through the enemy and smash apart his coherency, rendering him incapable of organized resistance. This is a temporary state of affairs and the enemy will rally once the Marines move on to their next target, so that's why you need the Imperial Guard to follow up the Marines and also launch diversionary attacks on less important parts of the battlefield - the Marines kill the enemy, the Guard makes sure they stay dead.

And, suddenly, Space Marines seem less unrealistic. Exalted!