Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello everyone. I've recently become very interested about instances of conflicts between loyal Imperial Guard and equally loyal Space Marines. Could not find much via google, so... Can someone give me any good examples? So far I know only two:

Steel Confessors eliminated Tallarn 54th Regiment for "failure to achieve objectives". Inquisition frowned and investigated.
Blood Ravens destroyed Kronus 1st because of the conflicting orders given to them by their superiors, and each struggled to reach 100% completion of those orders. It was noted though that survivors were treated with kind of honour and shipped of the planet with the notes that they've made their regiment proud. Inquisition, though, took their notes once again.

Any more examples if any, please? Thanks.

Flesh Tearers. Just... Flesh Tearers.

Most notable example was on Armageddon when they overran Chaos positions and carried on fighting as they hit the Guard regiments that had been encircling the enemy. Most public, too, since the Sisters of the Argent Shroud present reported them for it.

I remember reading that paragraph recently... and as far as i remember there was some militia made up of locals by the Sisters. Not sure if it really counts as IG regiment...

Marines Malevolent?

Yea, there were a lot of stuff around about MM, that they don't care much about "collateral damage" to the other Imperial Forces. In the same Armageddon conflict they killed a lot of refugees. As far as I understood, they have general dislike towards civilians and refugees because they do not fight the enemy. Anyway, I could not really find any accurate examples.

I am also pretty sure that Kaurava conflict had a fight between Blood Ravens and 252nd Conservator Regiment, but again, nothing concrete was established so far.

Dark angels need no excuses if any other imperial authority comes across one if the fallen.

Gotta get the fallen, and make sure there are no witnesses.

Minautors and any other chapter.

The usual suspects doing their usual suspicious things. Flesh Tearers destroy IG Units on a daily basis, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, etc. have similar reputations.

Crimson Fists are commonly called upon to exterminate chapters declared traitors.

Dark Angels are known for not being too concerned about making nosey groups, whether inquisition, astartes or other, disappear if they get in the way or too close to their hunt for the fallen.

Ross_R wrote:
Yea, there were a lot of stuff around about MM, that they don't care much about "collateral damage" to the other Imperial Forces. In the same Armageddon conflict they killed a lot of refugees.

It was an ork prison/labor camp that they "liberated" by shelling it before going in. IIRC they didn't actually have anything against the human prisoners, they just saw it as useless and inefficient to try getting a few measly thousands out if they could instead kill a few thousand orks together with the prisoners.

Spetulhu wrote:

Ross_R wrote:
Yea, there were a lot of stuff around about MM, that they don't care much about "collateral damage" to the other Imperial Forces. In the same Armageddon conflict they killed a lot of refugees.

It was an ork prison/labor camp that they "liberated" by shelling it before going in. IIRC they didn't actually have anything against the human prisoners, they just saw it as useless and inefficient to try getting a few measly thousands out if they could instead kill a few thousand orks together with the prisoners.

We probably talk about different instances. Here's what I'm talking about: http://web.archive.org/web/20050626084032/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/malevolent.html

And to anyone else, can you give me links to the sources, books, etc? Especially about Dark Angels killing someone.

Minotaurs have clashed with Doom Warriors and... someone else there, but that's the only time I can recall that they've attacked someone loyal. As Marines Malevolent, they do not care much about damage done to their imperial allies, but they do not concentrate on them.

Chapters declared renegades are not loyal anymore, and I'm interested into clashes between loyal Imperial forces, especially between Imperial Guard regiments and Astartes chapters. And I definitely did not hear about Flesh Tearers destroying IG Units on a daily basis. @dusara217, where have you got that?

And before someone mentioned Gray Knights - Inquisition and their forces is whole another story.

@Ross_R. There's a reason that I said "the usual suspects". The Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent, etc. are known for being bloodthirsty maniacs and/or donkey-caves in general. If you just read their wiki/lexicanum articles, you see why.

Ross_R wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Ross_R wrote:
Yea, there were a lot of stuff around about MM, that they don't care much about "collateral damage" to the other Imperial Forces. In the same Armageddon conflict they killed a lot of refugees.

It was an ork prison/labor camp that they "liberated" by shelling it before going in. IIRC they didn't actually have anything against the human prisoners, they just saw it as useless and inefficient to try getting a few measly thousands out if they could instead kill a few thousand orks together with the prisoners.

We probably talk about different instances. Here's what I'm talking about: http://web.archive.org/web/20050626084032/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/malevolent.html

And to anyone else, can you give me links to the sources, books, etc? Especially about Dark Angels killing someone.

Minotaurs have clashed with Doom Warriors and... someone else there, but that's the only time I can recall that they've attacked someone loyal. As Marines Malevolent, they do not care much about damage done to their imperial allies, but they do not concentrate on them.

Chapters declared renegades are not loyal anymore, and I'm interested into clashes between loyal Imperial forces, especially between Imperial Guard regiments and Astartes chapters. And I definitely did not hear about Flesh Tearers destroying IG Units on a daily basis. @dusara217, where have you got that?

And before someone mentioned Gray Knights - Inquisition and their forces is whole another story.

Best DA one is from the EoT campaign. Try to dig up the weekly updates and campaign wrap up it has their fratricide stuff in it, including wasting a Black Templar strike cruiser to being a few fallen into custody.

There's the Kauravan conflict, too, IIRC the IG won that one, meaning they've fought and defeated SoB's and SM's

But regardless of who won, there was conflict between the 3 factions, for sure.

 dusara217 wrote:
@Ross_R. There's a reason that I said "the usual suspects". The Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent, etc. are known for being bloodthirsty maniacs and/or donkey-caves in general. If you just read their wiki/lexicanum articles, you see why.

Well, the suspects is not what I'm looking for... I'm pretty sure there's a dozens of chapters that have been suspected in something like that, like Flesh Eaters or maybe Relictors... But I'm looking for the confirmed ones. Like what I said in my very first post, where it was known where and which chapter clashed with which regiment of IG.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Best DA one is from the EoT campaign. Try to dig up the weekly updates and campaign wrap up it has their fratricide stuff in it, including wasting a Black Templar strike cruiser to being a few fallen into custody.

Well, now that's completely new and awesome info for me, thanks a lot.

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's the Kauravan conflict, too, IIRC the IG won that one, meaning they've fought and defeated SoB's and SM's

But regardless of who won, there was conflict between the 3 factions, for sure.

Yea, but it could be actually be some of the other factions who defeated SoB's and SM's. and IG's defeated the ones who defeated them later. Unfortunately, there's not that much official info about that conflict.

What actually happened in the 'real' version is probably a Sororitas/Guard alliance swept everyone else away with the B.R. only deploying from their battle barge in occasional support.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
What actually happened in the 'real' version is probably a Sororitas/Guard alliance swept everyone else away with the B.R. only deploying from their battle barge in occasional support.

In Dawn of War II it's mentioned that the Kauvara campaign was a terrible mark on Blood Raven history if I recall correctly.

The line specifically was;

Cyrus: "We do not talk about Kaurava."

Tarkus: "But,"

Cyrus: "No."

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The line specifically was;

Cyrus: "We do not talk about Kaurava."

Tarkus: "But,"

Cyrus: "No."

This is the accurate dialogue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5fO0oo66r4

And probably another dialogue, or some piece of wargear, told a bit more specifically about casualties, but the fact is that a lot of space marines died there. This, actually, may be a hint that BR were defeated by someone, who did not finished off every single battle brother. I suppose, either Imperial Guard, Eldar or Tau.

The Months of Shame between the Armageddon Steel Legion and Space Wolves VS Grey Knights.

 RLRAFTERMAN wrote:
The Months of Shame between the Armageddon Steel Legion and Space Wolves VS Grey Knights.

Yup, this is probably the most notable time when IG were faced with SM, having it be GK made it all the worse. It is also the most notable (and possibly only) time when a loyalist chapter stood up to the GK, and did so in defense of IG.

That chunk of fluff is a very important part of what makes SW more than the bearded drunk marines stereotype.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 RLRAFTERMAN wrote:
The Months of Shame between the Armageddon Steel Legion and Space Wolves VS Grey Knights.

Yup, this is probably the most notable time when IG were faced with SM, having it be GK made it all the worse. It is also the most notable (and possibly only) time when a loyalist chapter stood up to the GK, and did so in defense of IG.

That chunk of fluff is a very important part of what makes SW more than the bearded drunk marines stereotype.

The other important part begins with "wo" and end in "lf".

But, that aside, SW are the Good Guy Greg of 40k.

Nah, Space Wolves are the Mary Sue of Space Marines (in my very biased opinion). They do everything just a little better than anyone else. The fact that they're bearded drunk guys with a severe genetic flaw that devolves initiates into beasts and who fight for individual glory and honor... well, it clashes violently with GW efforts to have you believe they're superbly disciplined soldiers and thoughtful tacticians. Not to mention that their Wolfpriests seem to be better than either Techmarines or Apothecaries and their shamanistic totems seem to be more effective than anyone else's Librarians. And they don't bother with Chaplains because they're too awesome and freedom loving for that.

While the Wolves certainly clashed with the Grey Knights over events on Armageddon, it was more because the GK offended the Wolves sense of honor (slaughtering allies who fought honorably) than for altruistic reasons. Which is, again, a disconnect with the Wolves role as the Emperor's enforcers (executioners?) and the ruthless following of orders that role implies.

Keep in mind that human servants of the Wolves are still second class citizens. The Space Wolves will take time to speak to them, explain things to them and even honor them when they earn it, but the normals clearly see themselves as subservient. On the other hand Fenris is a deathworld, and the Wolves (who see a deathworld as a good training ground) do nothing to improve conditions for their humans. Fenrisians remain preindustrial barbarians, uneducated and struggling for survival. It's the culture they're raised in, one that the Space Wolves uphold as necessary and revere as traditional.

But it doesn't seem very 'good' to me.

To be fair, the Wolves do treat their humans better than Chapter Serfs for many other chapters, who are little more than chattel.
Still, I'd give the good guy title to the Salamanders, and I'd rate the Ultramarines more or less equal to the Wolves.

Sallies clearly have caring for the commoners welded into their DNA. Salamanders live among normal humans, working with them daily. Though they clearly lead their communities the respect Salamanders have for normal humans is obvious. They treat humans pretty much as peers, and in the fluff they repeatedly stood up on behalf of not only normal human soldiers but civilians as well.

Ultramarines are more 'apart' from humans in the Realm of Ultramar than the Salamanders but they rule with a fair and moderate hand. Though it's a feudal system (similar to Fenris) the worlds of Ultramar are civilized, ecologically stable and prosperous under Ultramarine rule (unlike Fenris or most of the Imperium). Actual justice seems to be a thing in Ultramar. Ultramarines do not cut themselves off from their families, and families gain great honor from having a son chosen to join the Ultras. Given the difference in cultures I'd put Ultramar roughly equal to Fenris in 'good guy-ness'.

My two cents, heavily biased against the Space Pups.