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Are you allowed to null deploy with promethium relay pipes? (And not auto lose if your first units arrive turn 2)

No.

See Stronghold Assault, Page 15 "Victory Conditions".

Ok....but lets say you are not using Stronghold Assault rules and just the 7th BRB.

The only thing I could find was:

"Terrain & Victory Conditions
Do not include any Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points or determining if a player has
any units ‘on the battlefield’."

But when trying to find out if a bought and paid for fortification unit counts as 'Citadel scenery models' I couldn't find something that explicitly stated that.

If it has a Terrain Datasheet it is a 'Citadel scenery model' (see Terrain Datasheets near the back of the rulebook).

Where are you getting Fortifications to add to your army without using Stronghold Assault?

Promethium relay pipes came with the datasheet in the box (they are in white dwarf too)

Didn't read in the BRB that you couldn't use fortifications without also using stronghold assault rules

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Didn't read in the BRB that you couldn't use fortifications without also using stronghold assault rules

Where in the rulebook are you getting the points values in order to add them to your army? The datasheet must have a points value listed in order to take it as a part of your army (see 'Points Value' in the Terrain Datasheets section of the rulebook).

The CAD in BRB says you can take a fortification.

The datasheet for the pipes says at the top I believe what the points are (don't have it on me) 40 points I believe.

I've never read or bought the stronghold assault rules. But between the BRB, CAD writeup in it and the pipes datasheet it seemed it was playable without the stronghold assault rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway - wasn't trying to squeeze the rule through or anything, just an actual question I couldn't find the answer to (in 7th BRB, not using stronghold assault) was could you deploy just prometheum pipes and have your army start arriving turn 2?

(I'm leaning more towards no but was just looking for the rule on this)

So you found the one of the few cases where they reprinted the rules from Stronghold Assault to go along with a release. So what is the points values for the Aegis Defense Line, or the Imperial Bastion or the Skyshield Landing Pad?

If the Fortification is not a 'Citadel scenery models,' then what is?

JinxDragon wrote:
If the Fortification is not a 'Citadel scenery models,' then what is?

Well my line of thinking was that you technically have a unit on the board.

But from the responses, it seems like the general consensus is to use the stronghold assault rules which explicitly states that it does not count for the no units on board victory condition.

I normally don't run fortifications and for some reason thought the rules would have been covered in BRB since it talks about them and doesn't specifically tell you to go looking in stronghold assault.

Fortifications fail to meet the definition of a Unit put forth within the Rulebook, they lack the required 'Unit Type' field.

Due to the Rulebook informing us that Units are a collection of Models grouped together, later informing us this is per the Unit Composition section of a Units Datasheet, it is directly linked to objects called Models. This book also informs us that Models will always have a Profile and a Unit Type. Thus anything lacking a Profile or Unit Type can not interact with any Rule requiring a 'Model,' as it is not a Model persay. As Terrain does not have a Unit Type, and uses a Terrain Datasheet lacking a 'Unit Composition' section, it can never meet the definition of Model and thus can not be considered a Unit by default.

This is why Buildings purchased as Fortifications have a specific Rule granting it Unit status during the game....
This does not change the fact there is a specific Rule telling us not to count Citadel Scenery Models, and they are still Citadel Scenery Models even if they where Units at the same time.

Actually, fortifications have battlefield and unit type in 7th. This came up in the thread about deep striking a fortification via a Dark Eldar web way portal, which is the only legitimate way of doing so. There is also the instance of one of the dense turrets being able to purchase a Comms Relay, which per the rules does count as a friend model for use of the Relay. Situations like these exist solely due to GW's inability to write cohesive rules.

SJ

That would be a massive over-sight on my behalf, can you please quote me the Unit Type of a few Fortifications?

JinxDragon wrote:
That would be a massive over-sight on my behalf, can you please quote me the Unit Type of a few Fortifications?

Most are Buildings. Some are Battlefield Terrain.

That would be its Terrain Type, not its Unit Type. I'll let the two of you decide if those are the same thing or not.

 Ghaz wrote:
That would be its Terrain Type, not its Unit Type. I'll let the two of you decide if those are the same thing or not.

Fortifications are Units when purchased with your Army. So, it's a Unit, and that is their Type. Why complicate it?

Fortification
Fortifications are battlefield defences, including everything from barricades to towering fortresses. They are typically buildings and/or battlefield debris that your army has either constructed or captured just before the start of the battle. You’ll find a wide range of fortifications presented in Warhammer 40,000: Stronghold Assault, and further fortification datasheets feature in other Games Workshop publications.

The unit type for fortifications is generally either Building or Battlefield debris, depending on if it has an AV and hull points, or not.

SJ

Building or Battlefield debris are not a Unit type, they are a Terrain Type though.

Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That would be its Terrain Type, not its Unit Type. I'll let the two of you decide if those are the same thing or not.

Fortifications are Units when purchased with your Army. So, it's a Unit, and that is their Type. Why complicate it?

A few thoughts on that:

Fortifications are Terrain. That's why they have a Terrain Type, not a Unit Type. And a Promethium Relay Pipe is not even a building, it's Battlefield Debris.

Even if they were treated like units while building your list, they (PRPs) clearly aren't units once they're on the table. There is literally no way to destroy the Pipes and they are completely unable to act, hold objectives or do anything else.

You couldn't be tabled just by bringing 40pts of Pipes.

Now if the Terrain piece in question has the Fully Automated SR and is not destroyed, I'd (HIWPI) let you count it towards the units you have on the table. So if you bring a Firestorm Redoubt and I fail to destroy it in turn 1, you'd not auto-loose. Any other terrain piece I'd tell you that you'll loose and should deploy something along with it.

They are terrain types until you pay points for them, at which point they become a unit in your army. It isn't clear because of the fact that you can add these terrain types to the game for either side to take the benefit of (with no one paying for them). Brb "the models that make up your warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into 'units.'" Therefore, if you have paid points, and it's a model, it must either be a unit, or part of a unit.

 JamesY wrote:
They are terrain types until you pay points for them, at which point they become a unit in your army. It isn't clear because of the fact that you can add these terrain types to the game for either side to take the benefit of (with no one paying for them). Brb "the models that make up your warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into 'units.'" Therefore, if you have paid points, and it's a model, it must either be a unit, or part of a unit.

It literally doesn't matter whether or not it is a unit or not - which it seems to be based on the BRB. But:


Stronghold Assault

Unless you and your opponent decide otherwise, do not include fortifications for the purposes of awarding Victory Points or determining when an opposing side is 'wiped out'.

BRB

Do not include any Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points or determining if a player has any units ‘on the battlefield’

"Citadel scenery models" is just a complicated way of them saying "terrain" which includes fortifications and battlefield terrain - I'd have to quote the entire Terrain Datasheets chapter to show that (just go look at your BRB)

nekooni wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
They are terrain types until you pay points for them, at which point they become a unit in your army. It isn't clear because of the fact that you can add these terrain types to the game for either side to take the benefit of (with no one paying for them). Brb "the models that make up your warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into 'units.'" Therefore, if you have paid points, and it's a model, it must either be a unit, or part of a unit.

It literally doesn't matter whether or not it is a unit or not - which it seems to be based on the BRB. But:


Stronghold Assault

Unless you and your opponent decide otherwise, do not include fortifications for the purposes of awarding Victory Points or determining when an opposing side is 'wiped out'.

BRB

Do not include any Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points or determining if a player has any units ‘on the battlefield’

"Citadel scenery models" is just a complicated way of them saying "terrain" which includes fortifications and battlefield terrain - I'd have to quote the entire Terrain Datasheets chapter to show that (just go look at your BRB)

Sold. I'll take that. I prefer it that way, as I do believe that the game should start when the battle actually begins.

A slight correction from earlier units don't require a unit type or there would be no units in the game as not a single unit has a unit type. To be a model you must have a unit type, and no Fortifications have unit types so none are models by the rules and thus also aren't units.

Terrain Types are not Unit Types, thus Terrain fails to be a Model so grouping terrain together on a Datasheet does not turn it into a Unit.
Besides, how would you Resolve an attack against an Independent Character who has joined the Unit: Aegis Defense Line?

Agreed Jinx.

JinxDragon wrote:
Terrain Types are not Unit Types, thus Terrain fails to be a Model so grouping terrain together on a Datasheet does not turn it into a Unit.
Besides, how would you Resolve an attack against an Independent Character who has joined the Unit: Aegis Defense Line?

I'm sorry but the BRB specifically calls Terrain "models".

If a Citadel scenery model can be taken as part of an army, then a points value for the model will be listed here.

And they're included in the term "units", too. Example from the Detachments chapter:

All units belong to one of the many Factions that are fighting in the 41st Millennium. (....) Note that Fortifications are an exception in that, unless otherwise stated on their datasheet, they do not have a Faction.

Or from the Scoring Units paragraph:

Any unit can be a scoring unit, unless:
• It is a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, a Zooming Flyer or is a unit currently
embarked on a Zooming Flyer.
• It has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a scoring unit.
• It is currently Falling Back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a
scoring unit again).
• It is a building or fortification that is unclaimed (claimed buildings count as a scoring
unit from the claiming player’s army).

*edit*
And regarding the IC:

Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules. The main difference between buildings and actual vehicles is that they can’t move, they can be controlled by either side and units from either side can embark upon them.

ICs can't join vehicles, buildings are treated basically like vehicles (except as noted in the Building section) - so you can't join them.

Aegis isn't a building.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All Models have a unit type what unit types do fortifications have?

As already stated, fortifications are either Buildings or Battlefield Terrain. Failure to read other people's posts does not automatically make your argument correct.

SJ

I asked for unit type. Neither of those are unit types.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Aegis isn't a building.

Of course not, but I didn't expect you to ask me to explain how or why an IC cannot join terrain. If you want to argue that case at your group, good luck. I don't see how an IC can join terrain, there's no permission given at any point.
I concentrated on Fortifications that are buildings, since they kinda behave like regular units - but those have straight-up rules for that very situation specifically denying you to do it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
All Models have a unit type what unit types do fortifications have?

I don't know, maybe read the damn rulebook for yourself? How about you provide a rule quotation for both of your claims first? I'm just saying that the BRB says that they're models, including the quotations of where that happens. Are you saying there's something that supercedes the BRB in calling them models?