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Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





After several games I prefer the Crusader with a rap battle cannon.

Omg, I cant believe I was doing the statistics all wrong. in this spoiler you can see my glaring mistakes.
Spoiler:

Upgrading a Warden/Errant to a Crusader is 55pts. 5 more points and you get a rap battle cannon.
I tend to look at it as upgrading a Errant/Paladin to get an avenger gat for 55pts.

The alternative is to upgrade a Warden/Errant/paladin with a Storm Spear Rockets for 40pts.

Lets compare the avenger gat to the stormspear rockets.

avenger gat is 36" S6 ap3 heavy12 rending while the Stormspear Rockets are 48" S8 ap3 heavy3 but costs 15pts less

avenger gat S6+rend

av11 glance 33% pen 16% x 12 shots = 4 glance 2 pens
av12 glance 16% pen 16% (due to rending d3 of 1s = 13) x12 shots = 2 pen avg
av13 glance 16% (rending d3 1s) pen 5% (rend d3 of 2s=14) x12 shots= 2 glance avg and .6 pen avg
av14 glance 5% (6s/2s=14) pen 2.5% (6s/3s) x12 shots= .6 glance avg and .3 pen avg
T4 (terminators and marines) 83% wounding x12 shots= 10 wound avg and 2 ap2 on termi
T8 (freakin Wraith Knight): 16% wounding x 12 shots = 4 wound avg (suck on it WK you get no armor from rending ap2 so take your invul and fnp which you will probably save anyways :( )

EDIT: forgot to account for BS4 = 66% hits of the 12 shots. So the ending avg should be much lower
replace 12 shots with 8 hits then calculate %.

Stormspear Rockets S8
av11 glance 66% pen 50% x3 shots = 2 glance avg and 1.5 pen avg
av12 glance 50% pen 33% x3 shots = 1.5 glance avg and 1 pen avg
av13 glance 33% pen 16% x3 shots= 1 glance avg and .50 pen avg
av14 glance 16% pen 0% x3 shots= .5 glance avg and 0 pen
T8 wounding 50% x3 shots = 1.5 wound avg still ap3 atleast.

For 15pts more you can take an avenger gat over the Stormspear rockets. However 2 avenger gats =110pts. 3 stromspear = 120 pts. Are 3 Stormspear Rockets better than 2 avenger gats?

2 avenger gats for 24 shots for 110pts
av11: 8 glance avg and 4 pens
av12: 4 pens avg
av13: 4 glance avg and 1.2 pen avg
av14: 1.2 glance avg and .6 pen avg
t8: 8 wound avg

3 StormsStormspear Rockets of 9 shots for 120pts
av11: 6 glance avg and 4.5 pen avg
av12: 4.5 glances avg and 4 pen avg
av13: 4 glances avg and 1.5 pen avg
av14: 1.5 glance avg and 0 pen avg
T8: 4.5 wound avg

I dont know how to math hammer range comparison of 36" vs 48"

Now lets compare Thermal Cannon vs Rapid Battle Cannon

Thermal Cannon S9 ap1 ordinance 1
av11: .83 glance .66 pen
av12: .66glance .50 pen
av13: .50 glance .33 pen
av14: .33 glance .16 pen
T7: .83 wounds
T8: .66 wounds
T9: .50 wounds
T10: .33 wounds

Rapid battle cannon s8 ap3 ordinance 2
av11: 66% glance and 50% pen x 2 shots = 1.33 glance avg and 1 pen
av12: 50% glance and 33% pen x 2 shots = 1 glance avg and .66 pen avg
av13: 33% glance and 16% pen x 2 shots = .66 glance avg and .33 pen avg
av14: 16% glance and 0% pen x 2 shots = .33 glance avg and 0 pen
T6: 1.66 wounds
T7: 1.33 wounds
T8: 1 wounds
T9: .66 wounds
T10: .33 wounds
Edit: forgot to account ordinance allowing roll 2 d6 and take highest to penetrate.

However Termal Cannon trumps Rapid Battle cannon when it comes to killing terminators
say 5 terminators are under the blast. 5 x .83 = 4.15 wounds no 2+ armor means 1.38 invuls saved as the remaining 2.76 fail.
Compared to Rapid battle cannon 5 termis x 1.66 wounding= 8.33 wounds but 2+ armor saves 6.94 terminators 1.36 fail.

We can also compare Crusader melee vs having a chain reaper sword.

Crusader A3 S10 ap2

T8: 83% wounding x 3 attacks =2.5 wounds
T9: 66% wounding x 3 attacks = 2 wounds
T10: 50% wounding x 3 attacks = 1 wounds
av11: 83% pen x3 attacks = 2.5 pen
av12: 83% glance 66% pen x3 atk= 2.5 glance avg and 2 pen avg
av13: 66% glance and 50% pen x3atk = 2 glance avg and 1.5 pen avg
av14: 50% glance and 33% pen x3 atk = 1.5 glance 1 pen

Chain reaper sword S*D
T#: 16% nothing, 66% d3 wounds, and 16% RFG
av#: same thing as above but with hp
Super heavy Vehicle: 16% Nothing, 66% d3 hp loss, 16% 6+d6 hp loss.
(how do you compute avg d3 hp loss and 6+d6 avg hp loss?)

I am not sure how to compare point cost efficiency.


Ok I downloaded a phone app called MathHammer 40k for $1 and It was not worth it but it was nice to have.

Here are some of the app's calculations all computed at BS4 and for the blast template if applicable.

Avenger Gat (36" S6 Ap3 Heavy 12 rending but due to the limitations off the app, only 10 shots were calculated)
av11: 2.22 hp removed and 18.21% to destroy
av12: 1.11 hp removed and 18.21% to destroy
av13: 1.11 hp removed and 12.35% to destroy
av14: 0.74 hp removed and 06.17% to destroy
T8: 1.33 wounds inflicted

Rap Battle Cannon (72" S8 ap3 ordinace 2)
av11: 1.78 hp removed and 23.61% destroy
av12: 1.50 hp removed and 18.21% destroy
av13: 1.11 hp removed and 10.19% destroy
av14: 0.61 hp removed and 0.00% destroy
T8: 0.50 wounds inflicted

Thermal Cannon (36" S9 Ap1 Melta 1)
av11: 1.00 hp removed and 48.61% destroy/ out of melta range 0.83 hp removed and 33.33% destroyed
av12: 0.97 hp removed and 45.83% destroy/ out of melta range 0.67 hp removed and 25.00% destroyed
av13: 0.92 hp removed and 41.67% destroy / out of melta range 0.50 hp removed and 16.67% destroyed
av14: 0.83 hp removed and 36.11% destroy / out of melta range 0.33 hp removed and 08.33% destroyed
T8: 0.67 wounds inflicted

Stormspear Rockets (48" S8 ap3 heavy 3)
av11: 1.33 hp removed and 16.66% destroyed
av12: 1.00 hp removed and 11.11% destroyed
av13: 0.67 hp removed and 5.56% destroyed
av14: 0.33 hp removed and 0.00% destroyed


Kytan's Gat (48" S8 ap3 Heavy 8)
av11: 3.56 hp removed and 38.27% destroy
av12: 2.67 hp removed and 27.47% destroy
av13: 1.78 hp removed and 14.81% destroy
av14: 0.89 hp removed and 0.00% destroy
T8: 2.67 wounds

to be continued and please let me know if my math is wrong. I am using rudimentary stats. what is that more advanced statistical math?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/11/01 23:24:57


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Your comparison costs are a little off, an Errant is 5pts cheaper than a Warden or Paladin. But since the difference between a Thermal Cannon and a Rapid Fire Battle cannon is only 5pts, it is functionally 55pts to upgrade a Reaper Chainsword to an Avenger Galting Cannon or Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, versus 50pts to upgrade a Reaper to Thermal Cannon. We can assume the 5pt difference is the co-axle Stubber/Flamer.

As to the AGC vs the Stormspear, the Warden and Crusader can take both, so the real comparison is between a Gallant with Stormspear (365pts) vs a Warden/Paladin/Errant. The Gallant still has a Thunderfist Gauntlet, which is technically a paid upgrade on the other three, but for comparison sake it can be ignored since a Crusader doesn't have the option; however, if we are upgrading the Gauntlet to a Thermal Cannon, it's a 45pt upgrade vs the Reaper to TC upgrade at 55pts, or the Reaper to RFBC/AGC upgrade at 65pts.

Which all means that the point difference between IK patterns is arbitrary, although the AGC out performs the TC and the RFBC most of the time.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Thank you jeff.

Can some one show me how to apply real math hammer to compare formations?

Gallant Lance vs Adamantine Lance vs Tripride
Barronial Court vs Household vs Terryn House vs Oathsworn

also why I think Chaos Knights are inferior. They cant take carapace weapons. The daemon upgrades are 50+ points. These upgrades increase survivability with a 5+ invil but doesnt add to the offense excrpg for better melee. Chaos knights need psychers to grimoire and make it invisible so you have to spend 300+ to support one. Next the Chaos knight Costs 370 and daemon upgrade is 50 then it is 420pts and guess what cost 5pts more? A Crusader. A crusader can earn back 100pts a turn because it can shoot 2 main guns at 2 tiny units of 50pts atleast. A knight with just 1 main gun needs to also assault to earn its points. If there were Chaos Gallants then I would change my mind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/01 06:08:39


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Bump:

Does anyone have a excel spread sheet that can simulate statistics for teams of Imperial Knights fighting stuff?
   
 
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