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After a recent (additional) viewing of SW Rebels (Siege of Lothal), I'd like to play a maxed out Vader in my next beer/pretzels game.

The best I can come up with is:

Vader
Predator
TIE x1
Adv. Targeting Computer
Engine Upgrade
Cluster Missiles (Proton Rockets?)

Any thoughts on a better Vader build if points are no object?

If the rest of the list isn't a swarm then Lone Wolf over Predator might be an idea, it's less offensive but rerolls on Green dice are always handy

Not sure on the exact mathwing of it but I think Prockets on Vader do more damage on average as you still have Focus and target lock up for modifying the roll (although someone better at tricky sums might be able to better comment)

I personally tend not to bother with missiles on Vader, but if you have the points then that'll be fine.

Vaders pilot talent is really flexible, and is largely dictated by what else is in your list. Lone Wolf is probably the best if you are just running a couple aces, and have enough free points for the initiative bid. Predators great in a more Swarmy list. Crack Shot is useful if you are tight on points, as it helps force through that crit from Advanced Targeting Computer. Finally, if you end up really close to your point limit, Veteran Instincts can be important to counter the likes of Soontir.

Since you are going for a "Siege of Lothal" theme, Lone-Wolf is probably the most appropriate.

If you're going to take missiles at least take ion pulse missiles or maybe assault missiles. ATC doesn't work on secondary weapons so it's not worth taking a missile that spends your target lock without inflicting any special effects on a target. Ion pulse missiles let you keep your target lock while controlling a target's movement, while assault missiles spend your target lock (if you use them) but at least force your opponent to break up their formation. Cluster missiles just waste points.

I agree with Peregrine... if you are going to use missiles with Vader Ion Pulse are the best.
Not that you have to use missiles with him at all. I find them to be a distraction from what Vader does best... cautiously pick apart their formation from behind and sides.

As far as EPT, I like Lone Wolf best, followed by VI and then Predator. Lone Wolf because it works both on Offense and Defence no matter how many times you are targeted. VI (to which I've come by only recently) because you'll get to outmaneuver the Fels and Han's of the world. I always seem to forget the rerolls due me due to Predator... just not used to it.

I too am a fan of Veteran Instincts on Vader because of the prevalence of PS 9 and 10 aces out there. There are very few pilots that can match Vader's PS 11 because most other PS 9 aces are better served with a different Elite Upgrade. Yes, not getting rerolls sucks, but completely dodging an arc because you're moving last is really nice.

I've never found it necessary to put any missiles on Vader, though I agree with Peregrine that Ion Pulse Missiles are a good choice. I think Proton Rockets are a sold choice as well.

Doesn't adrenaline rush turn a red maneuver into a white? With two actions on Vader, even if it's one use only, your opponent should be terrified of Vader getting behind a good ship with two actions.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Doesn't adrenaline rush turn a red maneuver into a white?

With two actions on Vader, even if it's one use only, your opponent should be terrified of Vader getting behind a good ship with two actions.

Yeah, it's nice for one point. The problem is that there are better options available.

It's a shame too because the card art is fantastic.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I too am a fan of Veteran Instincts on Vader because of the prevalence of PS 9 and 10 aces out there. There are very few pilots that can match Vader's PS 11 because most other PS 9 aces are better served with a different Elite Upgrade. Yes, not getting rerolls sucks, but completely dodging an arc because you're moving last is really nice.

Personally, I think that this is because Vader (post Engine-upgrade) comes bundled with everything needed to make an Ace work. Everyone else needs to use their EPT for action economy, either with free actions via Push the Limit, or a native re-roll from Predator/Lone Wolf. Vader, however, has action economy from his ability, and a slight damage buff via Advanced Targeting computer. So he is free to use his EPT to ensure that he gets the Arc dodging opportunity.

I've never found it necessary to put any missiles on Vader, though I agree with Peregrine that Ion Pulse Missiles are a good choice. I think Proton Rockets are a sold choice as well.

I suspect that S-Thread Tracers will be a thing. For one point, they let you forgo a probably useless range 3 shot for the ability to camp focus and evade and still potentially end the turn with a target lock, plus passing it to the rest of the squad.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I suspect that S-Thread Tracers will be a thing. For one point, they let you forgo a probably useless range 3 shot for the ability to camp focus and evade and still potentially end the turn with a target lock, plus passing it to the rest of the squad.

I don't. I'd rather try to get damage through than use Vader to give everyone in his squad a target lock, especially since most Vader squads are are only three ships or less.

To me, there is no such thing as a useless shot against anyone. I prefer to follow the advice of The Great One: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I don't. I'd rather try to get damage through than use Vader to give everyone in his squad a target lock, especially since most Vader squads are are only three ships or less.

Sure, but for just a single point it's worth it IMO if you aren't going to take a different missile. Sometimes you're going to be in a position where a TL (and increased damage) for your other ships is more than Vader himself is likely to contribute. It's not a must-include if points are tight, but it's worth considering.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sure, but for just a single point it's worth it IMO if you aren't going to take a different missile. Sometimes you're going to be in a position where a TL (and increased damage) for your other ships is more than Vader himself is likely to contribute. It's not a must-include if points are tight, but it's worth considering.

What current Vader builds would really benefit from it though?

Vader, Fel, & OGP doesn't really need it and probably can't afford it. Vader with three AC Tempests doesn't need it. You could fit it into a Vader/Whisper build, but it would be kind of pointless in my opinion. Maybe Vader with a mini-swarm could find some use in it, but I don't really see that being a popular build. Possibly a Vader/Vessery build could find use with it, but again I think that's kind "meh" to include it.

So yes, there are lists that could include it and I don't dispute that. Carnifex thinks it will be a "thing" to slap it on Vader when it's released and I just don't see it happening; there are better pilots out there for that missile.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
What current Vader builds would really benefit from it though?

No idea, but we can probably expect the metagame to change when wave 8 arrives. Some variant of the Vader/Fel/X combo might work, allowing Fel to set up a range-1 kill shot without having to take a targeting computer. But it's hard to say since the question is less "can these ships benefit from it" and more "will this exact list have one point available" and we just don't know how wave 8 is going to change those point totals.

there are better pilots out there for that missile.

Sure, but the two ships aren't competing at all. And, again, it's less "Vader is the perfect home for this upgrade" and more "you'll probably get one point of value out of putting it on Vader". You're not building around an alpha strike like the Blount list would be, you're just trying to add a single point of value on a ship that is already functional as-is.

 Peregrine wrote:
No idea, but we can probably expect the metagame to change when wave 8 arrives. Some variant of the Vader/Fel/X combo might work, allowing Fel to set up a range-1 kill shot without having to take a targeting computer. But it's hard to say since the question is less "can these ships benefit from it" and more "will this exact list have one point available" and we just don't know how wave 8 is going to change those point totals.

Okay, but for Fel to be in range 1 (and probably behind the target), there's a good chance Vader isn't going to be at range 3 of the same target. So just to set up a range 1 attack for Fel using Vader, you have to sacrifice an ATC attack from Vader to do it, which makes no sense. Even if Vader is at range three, an extra attack (with a guaranteed crit) on the same target as Fel that can help strip tokens is worth more than a target lock on Fel.

So what's better: a three dice range 3 shot that might strip tokens but do zero damage to set up a range 1 shot with a target lock or a three dice range 3 shot (with a guaranteed crit) that might strips tokens and do damage at the expense of a range 1 shot without a target lock? How often will that happen? Will it happen enough that the possibility of giving up an initiative bid make it worth it?

Sure, but the two ships aren't competing at all. And, again, it's less "Vader is the perfect home for this upgrade" and more "you'll probably get one point of value out of putting it on Vader". You're not building around an alpha strike like the Blount list would be, you're just trying to add a single point of value on a ship that is already functional as-is.

I'm not claiming is the perfect upgrade for Vader. The closest anyone came to saying that is Carnifex, who said he thinks it will be a "thing," which it seems both you and I agree that it probably won't. I'm also not saying it's the worst upgrade in the world for a Vader squad either.

I've already said that it might have some uses (I even listed some builds where it could fit) and that it might see the table with Vader every once and awhile. It isn't something to build a list around, it isn't the worst missile option for Vader, and it has the potential to be useful... What exactly are to trying to convince me that I haven't already said?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Okay, but for Fel to be in range 1 (and probably behind the target), there's a good chance Vader isn't going to be at range 3 of the same target.

I think you're misunderstanding a bit. Target locks stay around until they're used so you don't have to have Fel at range 1 on the turn you fire the missile. For example, on the initial approach you might have both Fel and Vader at range 3, with Fel in full turtle mode and not willing to spend focus on offense (making the turn's shooting rather weak). Vader takes the missile shot, setting up for next turn when both of your ships close to range 1 with focus + TL/ATC stacks.

What exactly are to trying to convince me that I haven't already said?

Maybe we just disagree on what it means to be a "thing"? IMO what it means is that it will be something that is commonly used, not necessarily a must-take or a build-around upgrade. So when you say you disagree with the claim that it will be a "thing" it sounds to me like you're arguing that it's a bad choice on Vader and won't see much use.

 Peregrine wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding a bit. Target locks stay around until they're used so you don't have to have Fel at range 1 on the turn you fire the missile. For example, on the initial approach you might have both Fel and Vader at range 3, with Fel in full turtle mode and not willing to spend focus on offense (making the turn's shooting rather weak). Vader takes the missile shot, setting up for next turn when both of your ships close to range 1 with focus + TL/ATC stacks.

No, I understand perfectly how target locks work, I just disagree with you. I would rather take two range 3 shots that could do damage instead of just one and another that may help set up another turn.

Most Vader builds that I've run or played against don't really have a point to spare for something that you may get to use, especially if it means having to downgrade a better upgrade to get it (which a lot of them would have to do).

Maybe we just disagree on what it means to be a "thing"? IMO what it means is that it will be something that is commonly used, not necessarily a must-take or a build-around upgrade. So when you say you disagree with the claim that it will be a "thing" it sounds to me like you're arguing that it's a bad choice on Vader and won't see much use.

Carnifex is implying that it will be common to see Vader with S-Thread and I don't think it will be for all of the reasons I've already explained. Again, I've already said (at least twice) that it isn't a "bad" upgrade so I don't understand why you're still claiming that's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's okay, but not good enough to be really common. Will you see it? Maybe, but I'm willing to bet none of the top 16 at Worlds next year will feature Vader with an S-Thread Tracer in his missile slot.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No, I understand perfectly how target locks work, I just disagree with you. I would rather take two range 3 shots that could do damage instead of just one and another that may help set up another turn.

I guess it depends on what you're expecting to face. If you're throwing those range 3 shots at Corran you're probably doing nothing against four greens plus focus and evade, and if you do manage to get lucky and slip a hit through R2-D2 repairs it. So in that case the value of the range 3 shots is zero and you're not giving up anything to try to set up a better shot for later. On the other hand if you're facing TLT y-wings you might as well just take the long-range shots because they're probably going to count.

Most Vader builds that I've run or played against don't really have a point to spare for something that you may get to use, especially if it means having to downgrade a better upgrade to get it (which a lot of them would have to do).

Sure, but like I said, what Vader lists right now use is irrelevant. Wave 8 is going to change the metagame again, and those Vader lists with no points to spare might turn into Vader lists with 4-5 point free and not much to spend them on. Or maybe points will be even tighter. Or maybe Vader won't be a viable option at all and we're arguing about nothing. It would be a mistake to try to draw any conclusions based on assumptions about what the rest of your list will look like when the possible options range from one extreme to the other. All we can do is look at the upgrade's value in isolation, and to me it looks like it's a fairly good deal as long as you don't already have plans for your missile slot.