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Hello everyone!

I saw that there was a fairly recent discussion regarding the WK and stomping and whether you could do it out of combat vs in vs i-don't-know-what-else. In the end, I didn't really get closure on this particular case because the thread just sort of died from frustration i think.

Regardless, my question is about a specific case that came up while my opponent was using an Imperial Knight over the weekend. If he assaults me and in the Initiative 4 fight sub-phase kills all of the models he was assaulting, can he still take his stomp attacks?

This question arose because I was under the impression that when all enemy models are slain, the combat ends and no other initiative steps are completed (why would they be when you can no longer normally attack anything?). He was saying that you ALWAYS go through every initiative step regardless of still being locked in combat, but because it seems like "being locked in combat" requires that you're actually in base contact or can consolidate at the initiative step to be in base contact is a requirement of being in combat, I didn't think he could do it.

Does anyone have any idea when combat is technically "over" or whether GMC/SH-Walkers can stomp no matter what after they've made it to combat?

Thanks!

"Fight the next Initiative step as previously described until all the Initiative steps have been completed (remember to skip Initiative steps which have no models in them)." (The Assault Phase Chapter, Fight Next Initiative Step section).

So you can attack if you have models at I1, usually they attacks wont do anything without enemy models though.

Stomp may have different rules.

yea, we were considering that fact. Our big question came down to "what does it mean to be engaged and does it matter if you're engaged to be able to stomp?"

The rules for engaged are:

"Determine Who Can Fight
After models have Piled In, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step and who is engaged with an enemy model must fight. A model is engaged in combat if:
• It is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
• It is within 2" horizontally and/or 6" vertically of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

Unengaged Models
Unengaged models cannot attack in close combat – they’re too far from the crush of battle."

So if the model becomes unengaged BEFORE the Initiative 1 step, does it still get to make those stomps? It seems to me that once he kills the unit, he's now unable to draw that 2" engagement range and therefore is not permitted to make attacks.

If he becomes unengaged prior to that step, but stomps aren't technically a close combat attack, what happens w/ them?

If all enemy models that are engaged are killed before your stomp attacks at I1, then you are no longer engaged and can not stompa. The one model that can still stomp after its attacks are Stompas. This has to do with the fact that the Stompa's attacks and stomps are both done at I1.

Actually, my other buddy just linked this bit of rules regarding what a stomp attack is and when it can be used:

"Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack."

Because it requires a SH Walker to be "engaged" does that not mean that it requires the 2" measurement or base contact?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glitcha wrote:
If all enemy models that are engaged are killed before your stomp attacks at I1, then you are no longer engaged and can not stompa. The one model that can still stomp after its attacks are Stompas. This has to do with the fact that the Stompa's attacks and stomps are both done at I1.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. You use the word "Stompa" and "stomp" and I really don't get your meaning, sorry.

He's saying that a Stompa is I1 anyway, so its standard CC attacks and Stomps are resolved simultaneously.

 BrokenRecord wrote:
He's saying that a Stompa is I1 anyway, so its standard CC attacks and Stomps are resolved simultaneously.

Ah, okay well that's a different point entirely and not really what we're asking about.

If all the models in the close combat are dead when it rolls around to I1 for stomps, there are no longer any engaged models so the model may not stomp.

Glitcha wrote:If all enemy models that are engaged are killed before your stomp attacks at I1, then you are no longer engaged and can not stompa. The one model that can still stomp after its attacks are Stompas. This has to do with the fact that the Stompa's attacks and stomps are both done at I1.

Not true. The Imperial Knight's Gauntlet/Fist/whatever-it's-called also causes the Knight to Attack at I1 while using it. It has other special rules to it which could get interesting when tying it in with Stomp.

Parsalian wrote:Actually, my other buddy just linked this bit of rules regarding what a stomp attack is and when it can be used:

"Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack."

Because it requires a SH Walker to be "engaged" does that not mean that it requires the 2" measurement or base contact?

Well, the BRB says under "Determine Who Can Fight".

A model is engaged in combat if:
• It is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
• It is within 2" horizontally and/or 6" vertically of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

So, since most Stompers do not run in Squads or Squadrons, they would either have to have another unit on their side engaged in the same combat, or they have to be Base To Base.

But as has been pointed out, if there are no enemies when I1 comes around, Stomping is not allowed.

@Christoph I'm with you on all of that. Thanks for the input.

Stompa is an ork model. It's normal attacks are initiative 1 and so are stomps, so it always gets to stomp.

Edit: ninja'd. Derp.

About the only reason to take a Thunderfist Gauntlet on your Knight (beside looks) is that using it will guarantee getting stomps off. Lets you crash a transport, shake out the passengers, Stomp on them, then throw their transport at the survivors. So F'ing Anime!

SJ

For stomps, and GMCs and Walkers that are striking at I1, you may stomp first if you choose too. There is no rule stating your Stomp Attacks must be after your initial attacks, so you may stomp a Vehicle or unit, do your damage, then attack what ever it is that you charged after everything is said and done.

The only issue you might run into is that if you are Charging a vehicle, and stomp it immediately, you WONT BE ABLE TO attack the unit it may be transporting if you blow up the transport. Once they disembark they are a separate unit and you cannot allocate your remaining attacks to the unit it was carrying.

As stated above however you could just fling the stupid transport they were in on top of them if scatter permits and hope for a good ol' splat lol

 GoliothOnline wrote:
For stomps, and GMCs and Walkers that are striking at I1, you may stomp first if you choose too. There is no rule stating your Stomp Attacks must be after your initial attacks, so you may stomp a Vehicle or unit, do your damage, then attack what ever it is that you charged after everything is said and done.

The only issue you might run into is that if you are Charging a vehicle, and stomp it immediately, you WONT BE ABLE TO attack the unit it may be transporting if you blow up the transport. Once they disembark they are a separate unit and you cannot allocate your remaining attacks to the unit it was carrying.

As stated above however you could just fling the stupid transport they were in on top of them if scatter permits and hope for a good ol' splat lol

There is also no restriction on the first Stomp being who the Stomper is Engaged with, either.

Charistoph wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
For stomps, and GMCs and Walkers that are striking at I1, you may stomp first if you choose too. There is no rule stating your Stomp Attacks must be after your initial attacks, so you may stomp a Vehicle or unit, do your damage, then attack what ever it is that you charged after everything is said and done.

The only issue you might run into is that if you are Charging a vehicle, and stomp it immediately, you WONT BE ABLE TO attack the unit it may be transporting if you blow up the transport. Once they disembark they are a separate unit and you cannot allocate your remaining attacks to the unit it was carrying.

As stated above however you could just fling the stupid transport they were in on top of them if scatter permits and hope for a good ol' splat lol

There is also no restriction on the first Stomp being who the Stomper is Engaged with, either.

Very good point, so everyone be sure to Multi-Assault and attempt to stomp multiple things!

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Very good point, so everyone be sure to Multi-Assault and attempt to stomp multiple things!

That's not what he meant. He was saying that there's no rule prohibiting using stomps to hit units that aren't locked in combat w/ the Stomping model/unit. This is more-or-less the crux of the issue as well, since if every enemy unit in the combat dies before initiative step 1, then the rules state that the Stomping model is no longer "engaged" and being "engaged" is a requirement for Stomping.

Needless to say, this argument is ruffling some feathers, but I think largely it's been agreed upon that you can't do it in that circumstance. It's just the original guy arguing the other way w/ nearly everyone else saying you can't do it.

Stomping after all the enemy models are dead is simply a waste of time. Even if you were able to do it, why would you? It doesn't offer extra movement or anything special, so why waste everyone's time?

You could stomp another nearby enemy but who you haven't charged, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
About the only reason to take a Thunderfist Gauntlet on your Knight (beside looks) is that using it will guarantee getting stomps off. Lets you crash a transport, shake out the passengers, Stomp on them, then throw their transport at the survivors. So F'ing Anime!

SJ

You can destroy the vehicle, Stomp, and then throw it? Huh. I thought you always threw it immediately after.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You could stomp another nearby enemy but who you haven't charged, I guess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
About the only reason to take a Thunderfist Gauntlet on your Knight (beside looks) is that using it will guarantee getting stomps off. Lets you crash a transport, shake out the passengers, Stomp on them, then throw their transport at the survivors. So F'ing Anime!

SJ

You can destroy the vehicle, Stomp, and then throw it? Huh. I thought you always threw it immediately after.

A Gallant gets to throw it at initiative 1, even if the Gallant killed it at initiative 4 due to the wording of Hurl.

SJ

Due to the special rule Colossal on the Thunderstrike Gauntlet (and the Paragon Gauntlet), the wielder piles in and attacks at I1. It also looks like if the Thunderstrike Gauntlet is able to destroy a transport, the passengers must make an emergency disembarkation. If the knight hasn't yet made a stomp (since both stomp and attacks with the TG happen at I1), the knight could then presumably stomp on the newly disembarked unit.

I'm not so sure that's the case. BECAUSE they're both at I1, you can't do one, then the other. Just like a squad of marines with a meltagun can't pop a transport with a meltagun and shoot at the models that get out.

Or, since you could argue that that's due to single unit targeting single unit restrictions, a baneblade cannot use its main cannon to pop a transport, then its demolisher cannon on everything that gets out. Though it resolves its shots one at a time, its available targets are only those out in the field when it begins firing.

Since the stomps are I1 along with the gauntlet, I would say that your stomps can only be on the transport that your gauntlet is attacking, not on the squad (because at the time you would have to stomp, which is also the time you would have to attack, there was only a rhino there).

 Spellbound wrote:
Or, since you could argue that that's due to single unit targeting single unit restrictions, a baneblade cannot use its main cannon to pop a transport, then its demolisher cannon on everything that gets out. Though it resolves its shots one at a time, its available targets are only those out in the field when it begins firing.

While you have a point with melee attacks in Initiative, there is no rule that actually covers this above regarding shooting. Only Split Fire defines its changes to the Shooting Sequence, and only Split Fire rules forbid targeting a disembarked unit. Super-Heavies multiple targeting states neither of these things. At best, one can definitely state that the same weapons on a Super-Heavy cannot do this, as they must be fired together if at all, which goes back to the Initiative Step operations.

 McNinja wrote:
Stomping after all the enemy models are dead is simply a waste of time. Even if you were able to do it, why would you? It doesn't offer extra movement or anything special, so why waste everyone's time?

In the case that started the discussion (it wasn't stated in the opening post, but I'm part of the gaming group where this situation arose), it was so that the Knight could attack a relatively weak unit (which was screening another unit that was outside of the combat) and wipe it out, then Stomp the unit that was being screened.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Stomping after all the enemy models are dead is simply a waste of time. Even if you were able to do it, why would you? It doesn't offer extra movement or anything special, so why waste everyone's time?

In the case that started the discussion (it wasn't stated in the opening post, but I'm part of the gaming group where this situation arose), it was so that the Knight could attack a relatively weak unit (which was screening another unit that was outside of the combat) and wipe it out, then Stomp the unit that was being screened.

Which in this case either requires 1 of 2 things, and a 3rd.

One of two things:
1) Do not wipe out the Engaged Unit before Stomping, OR
2) Attack with the Gauntlet so the Attacks are done the same time as Stomping.

The third thing is:
3) Roll 2-3 Stomps so they can hit beyond your immediate Engagement range. Blast templates are not very large...

So, practical tactics to consider, but not always desirable, or possible. Good thing Fall Backs happen after the Fights instead of the end of the Initiative Step!