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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prisoners-banned-building-models-because-6768509

Let's have some collective sympathy for all our modelling brothers currently residing at Her Majesty's pleasure!

A step to far I think?

Speaking as one in the profession of Law Enforcement (U.S., granted, not the U.K.) I can see where the prison's point of view is coming from. Given enough time and ingenuity many things can be fashioned into weapons. Even wooden paint brush handles can be made into shanks that would be quite effective and deadly, not to mention files and hobby knives, etc.

However, it should be viewed as a case-by-case basis. If you've got a guy that's been in a long time (commonly referred to as a Trustee here in the states) who has demonstrated that they can be trusted and have shown good behavior over the course of several years in the institution they're incarcerated in, then I see no problem allowing them some hobby outlet to a limited extent, provided they don't share a cell or space with someone who could or would take those hobby supplies and use them to make weapons.

That said, and I may catch flak for saying this, but Prison/being incarcerated should not be fun. That's not to say that people can't be permitted some form of enjoyment while they are imprisoned, far from it. Television, books, even continuing education/university courses via internet are all excellent examples of things a prisoner could have access to that would allow them to pass the time and also better themselves while they are imprisoned.

That's my opinion on the matter, and bear in mind I am coming from a position of being in law enforcement here, so my perspective is a little different than most.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It shouldn't be fun no but then being locked up away from friends, family and the outside world is never going to be fun. Hobbies and crafts are a long tradition in jails in this country and are generally considered good for prisoners mental and emotional health.

I think they are more worried about sniffing the glue than making weapons. The prisoners seem to have come up with a work around for this and are still being ignored. This I think is a poor show.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Speaking as one in the profession of Law Enforcement (U.S., granted, not the U.K.) I can see where the prison's point of view is coming from. Given enough time and ingenuity many things can be fashioned into weapons. Even wooden paint brush handles can be made into shanks that would be quite effective and deadly, not to mention files and hobby knives, etc.

However, it should be viewed as a case-by-case basis. If you've got a guy that's been in a long time (commonly referred to as a Trustee here in the states) who has demonstrated that they can be trusted and have shown good behavior over the course of several years in the institution they're incarcerated in, then I see no problem allowing them some hobby outlet to a limited extent, provided they don't share a cell or space with someone who could or would take those hobby supplies and use them to make weapons.

That said, and I may catch flak for saying this, but Prison/being incarcerated should not be fun. That's not to say that people can't be permitted some form of enjoyment while they are imprisoned, far from it. Television, books, even continuing education/university courses via internet are all excellent examples of things a prisoner could have access to that would allow them to pass the time and also better themselves while they are imprisoned.

That's my opinion on the matter, and bear in mind I am coming from a position of being in law enforcement here, so my perspective is a little different than most.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

As someone that works on the other side of the fence, I'm a deputy that works in a jail, even though they are called trustees doesn't mean they can be trusted.

I would worry about the inmates having access to hard plastic that can (would) be used to make weapons. They are already given plenty of items to make shanks with, why give them more. Also the glue can be used as weapon in and of itself. Though water based it could be used to close nostrils, eyes, body cavities, ect ... and before you say it wouldn't/couldn't happen look it up ... it has happened.

I also agree with Red_Thirst, jail/prison shouldn't be fun and games. There are ample opportunities for inmates to occupy their time doing something constructive other than playing with models/toys.

This is going to sound harsh, and it is, but they are jail/prison, it's not going to be fun and games. When ever this stuff comes up people jump to the defense of the inmate. I say screw the inmate, what about their victim? After the trial, and even before it, the victim is often, at best, ignored or at worst made to relieve the incident again and again.

Again this opinion is after 10 years working with inmates, so it is more than likely a bit skewed.

 Debbin wrote:
They are already given plenty of items to make shanks with, why give them more.

Maybe I'm reading too much in to this sentence but if they already have plenty of items to make shanks.... why bother taking away models? If they're going to make them, they're going to make them if they already have things to make them from.

I thought the worry would have more been the knives and clippers that are required to make models. But certainly I think if it's safe enough (or not going to make a difference to safety) being allowed access to models is a good thing.

Sure, they may not be there to "have fun", but it seems to me we should be aiming to reduce an environment which fosters mental illness so they aren't just worse off when they get out. Hobbies like building model aircraft seems like a good idea in that context.

In the UK Prison is a step on the road to rehabilitation. Punishment is being given a custodial sentence and not the sentence itself. In real terms UK prisons are worse places for reform than they were at the start of the 1900's.

Successive governments have used the HM prison service as scapegoats and political fear-mongering within the establishment has meant that there is a wide degree of interpretation of rules and regulations at different sites. You can look at the recent shambles of stopping prisoners access to books and magazines sent in by relatives.

Such directives are too often driven by lack of funds and not for any safety or security reasons. Cost reductions mean that their isn't enough staff to run even the most basic services or regimes such as exercise or recreation.

In this case I expect that HMP IoW does not want to give staff the hassle of making sure materials are kept with appropriate inmates or accessible from a proper location, such as in education or meeting room.

It's a shame as there are inmates trying to rebuild and reform their lives ready for release. It is maddening as well, that their are inmates, looking at long sentences who would benefit from the distraction the hobby gives rather than festering in front of a TV for 18+ hours a day.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Debbin wrote:
They are already given plenty of items to make shanks with, why give them more.

Maybe I'm reading too much in to this sentence but if they already have plenty of items to make shanks.... why bother taking away models? If they're going to make them, they're going to make them if they already have things to make them from.

I thought the worry would have more been the knives and clippers that are required to make models. But certainly I think if it's safe enough (or not going to make a difference to safety) being allowed access to models is a good thing.

Sure, they may not be there to "have fun", but it seems to me we should be aiming to reduce an environment which fosters mental illness so they aren't just worse off when they get out. Hobbies like building model aircraft seems like a good idea in that context.

Because the items that are given, tooth brushes, pens, pencils are things that we are required to give them.

While they are a good idea in theory, practicality, usually, shows other wise.

Imagine how upset you get would get if someone were to purposefully break your model. Now imagine that in a setting where "respect" is one of the most important things to have. Someone comes into your area and breaks your stuff and you don't do anything about it, you just lost the respect of other inmates. Or if someone where to steal your model, same thing would happen.

I've seen fights happen because one inmate stood up to urinate. His cell mate took that as disrespectful. Why, because he could have gotten urine on him.

Add all of this together and it can lead to some very serious consequences for inmates and staff as well.

The mental health thing is a different debate all together.

To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

I just read about this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34705968

Pay for stay prisons! Brilliant!

Just hit the YTF. This could be better off in OT for discussion?

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

No, you are not. Inmates have access to education, alcohol and drug rehabilitation, and medical care that a large portion of our population doesn't have access to. Inmates can make their stay in prison as productive or unproductive as they choose. Some choose to rehabilitate, some don't.

As for corporate prisons, I agree with you on that. For profit prisons are some of the worst places you can go as an inmate and as an employee. State run prisons, for the officers, are usually not much better. Lousy pay and under-staffing lead to dangerous and deplorable conditions. Imagine being alone in a pod with 80+ inmates while armed with only mace and a radio for defense.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

I just read about this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34705968

Pay for stay prisons! Brilliant!

Just hit the YTF. This could be better off in OT for discussion?

Almost as brilliant as treating addiction as a crime instead of an illness to be treated! It's brilliant!

How about we take money from desperate poor people.... and give it to the soulless corporations who will do anything for profit! Oh, and the corporations are also people, because MURICA!!

Well a lot of it surely comes down to what kind of prison they're in and what for. If it's a maximum security prison and the person in question is in there for violent crimes and has shown violence to other inmates then I wouldn't give them hard plastic and glue. If it's someone doing time for like tax evasion or fraud or something and they've never been violent, I'm not seeing the issue.

Bearing in mind this is in a UK prison which dont seem to have quite the same 'culture' as American prisons do in terms of violence and stuff (correct me if I'm wrong). And yeah prison shouldn't be fun but the prisoner in question works full time and is being educated, I think a hobby isn't too much to ask. They even said they'd be allowed a games console, I think models is more productive than that.

You're acting as though every prisoner is a violent nutcase when that isn't even the issue the prison has with it, it's sniffing the glue, which they've found a workaround for.

 Debbin wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

No, you are not. Inmates have access to education, alcohol and drug rehabilitation, and medical care that a large portion of our population doesn't have access to. Inmates can make their stay in prison as productive or unproductive as they choose. Some choose to rehabilitate, some don't.

As for corporate prisons, I agree with you on that. For profit prisons are some of the worst places you can go as an inmate and as an employee. State run prisons, for the officers, are usually not much better. Lousy pay and under-staffing lead to dangerous and deplorable conditions. Imagine being alone in a pod with 80+ inmates while armed with only mace and a radio for defense.

"Bureau of Justice Statistics studies have found high rates of recidivism among released prisoners. One study tracked 404,638 prisoners in 30 states after their release from prison in 2005.[1] The researchers found that:
Within three years of release, about two-thirds (67.8 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.
Within five years of release, about three-quarters (76.6 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.
Of those prisoners who were rearrested, more than half (56.7 percent) were arrested by the end of the first year.
Property offenders were the most likely to be rearrested, with 82.1 percent of released property offenders arrested for a new crime compared with 76.9 percent of drug offenders, 73.6 percent of public order offenders and 71.3 percent of violent offenders."
- Source - National Institute of Justice
I wonder why? Perhaps because American prisons, instead of teaching prisoners useful skills, instead put nonviolent offenders who are guilty of nothing but using drugs ("Hey! No! Using that will ruin your life! Let's ruin your life to penalize you!") in an environment that makes it impossible to ever get a job ever again, pushing prisoners towards crime again? Perhaps if nonviolent offenders didn't have their lives ruined for no reason whatsoever, and were allowed to have jobsd after going to prison, they wouldn't be re-incarcerated for theft or other crimes born from desperation?

 Verviedi wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

I just read about this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34705968

Pay for stay prisons! Brilliant!

Just hit the YTF. This could be better off in OT for discussion?

Almost as brilliant as treating addiction as a crime instead of an illness to be treated! It's brilliant!

How about we take money from desperate poor people.... and give it to the soulless corporations who will do anything for profit! Oh, and the corporations are also people, because MURICA!!

My brilliant was as sarcastic as yours

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
To be honest, American prisons are a horrorscape. Instead of focusing on turning criminals into productive members of society, they are designed to maximize incarceration rates, to allow the corporations running the prisons (More of Our Corporate Overlords) to make more money. It's terrible that instead of encouraging prisoners to gain skills in the arts, they simply took away their hobby gear. Can't allow some actual skills to be gained, that would allow the prisoners to have options other than more crime after exiting prisons, amirite?

I just read about this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34705968

Pay for stay prisons! Brilliant!

Just hit the YTF. This could be better off in OT for discussion?

Almost as brilliant as treating addiction as a crime instead of an illness to be treated! It's brilliant!

How about we take money from desperate poor people.... and give it to the soulless corporations who will do anything for profit! Oh, and the corporations are also people, because MURICA!!

My brilliant was as sarcastic as yours

I know! I can only recognize sarcasm in a text-based format. The spoken language is gibberish to me

I have 2 issues with this.

1. It really doesn't belong in this thread.

2. They are prisoners for a reason. Here in the US they get way to many privileges for coming crimes. They took away there models for a reason. Something I think they should not have to begin with. Do we ever take into account the Victims of their crimes ?

The vast majority of prisoners in the USA are in for nonviolent crimes such as marijuana possession or tax evasion.

 Sammoth wrote:
I have 2 issues with this.

1. It really doesn't belong in this thread.

2. They are prisoners for a reason. Here in the US they get way to many privileges for coming crimes. They took away there models for a reason. Something I think they should not have to begin with. Do we ever take into account the Victims of their crimes ?

Again, it's not in the US, it's in a British prison. You don't know what their crime is, yet you assume it was something terrible. No crimes are truly victimless but I doubt they're a rapist or a murderer. And they didn't take away their models for any reason, they didn't let them have them because they were worried they would sniff the glue, but the prisoner found solvent less glue so their issue isn't an issue anymore.

Looking at the article, the fear is the glue. Prisons here have had to ban such things as alcohol based hand sanitizer due to the prisoners somehow getting hold of it and trying to get drunk.
I'm not being spurious, my chemist partner has had phone calls at his work from prisons asking a) if it's harmful (yes) and b) can they make some without.

But the article mentions solvent free glue, which would be the Tamiya limonene (sp) based "glue" which is indeed safe, and cannot glue anything but plastic. Or get you high. It's relatively modern, but the prisoner in the article is correct.

But... why not just paint? You can't get high on acrylics... can you?

Who's gonna put the models together, Matthew, the guards? : D

This is not really a Painting topic as the forum is meant to go, so I am moving it to Off Topic.

I think it depends on the crime, and a case by case basis. I look at it as this: how would I feel if it was me? Provided of course I didn't go on some crazy killing spree.

Give me paint brushes, clippers, a supply of paint and a few boxes of Betrayal at Calth to work through, and I'd be a model prisoner, never getting in trouble.

Of course, Joe Bob two cells over could turn those brushes into shanks, clippers into a stabby toy, and choke somebody to death with the models. So...yeah. Case by case.

Sadly, there are too many people in the system for this to happen. So everybody make friends with a cop who can support that this would be a good thing for you, should you ever land in jail. I got my cop buddy already!!

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Who's gonna put the models together, Matthew, the guards? : D

Yeah... and they can have a Golden Daemon! And Armies on Parade! yay! everyone is HAPPY!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Sammoth wrote:
I have 2 issues with this.

1. It really doesn't belong in this thread.

2. They are prisoners for a reason. Here in the US they get way to many privileges for coming crimes. They took away there models for a reason. Something I think they should not have to begin with. Do we ever take into account the Victims of their crimes ?

Again, it's not in the US, it's in a British prison. You don't know what their crime is, yet you assume it was something terrible. No crimes are truly victimless but I doubt they're a rapist or a murderer. And they didn't take away their models for any reason, they didn't let them have them because they were worried they would sniff the glue, but the prisoner found solvent less glue so their issue isn't an issue anymore.

I said NOT is in the US I made that clear by saying "Here in the US". You missed my point. So you think if they burglarized or theft/vandalize of someone property any different ? You don't know their crime either so that point is Null and Void. I simply said they should not have those benefits. Or why should they ? Does it matter the crime the committed ? They are in Prison not a Jail. You lose those privileges when you commit those crimes.

I'm not the one assuming they did some terrible thing to someone. Of course it matters the crime they committed. There's a big difference between theft/vandalism and murder. They already work full time and they're being educated. Prison is rehabilitation as much as punishment. I doubt there'd be any kind of consideration to their wanting a hobby if they were a violent criminal, or had done something terrible. Even if they had, if they've been in prison for a long time and shown good behaviour why can't they have a little hobby to pass the time? Yeah you should lose certain rights if you commit a crime, especially a serious one, but should you never be able to earn them back? What even is the point in prison then, if not to rehabilitate people? Prison shouldn't be fun but it's not like they'd be gaming 24/7, they have a job, and they're learning.

And again, if what they'd done was so terrible, the prisons main worry wouldn't be 'they might sniff the glue'.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Speaking as one in the profession of Law Enforcement (U.S., granted, not the U.K.) I can see where the prison's point of view is coming from. Given enough time and ingenuity many things can be fashioned into weapons. Even wooden paint brush handles can be made into shanks that would be quite effective and deadly, not to mention files and hobby knives, etc.

However, it should be viewed as a case-by-case basis. If you've got a guy that's been in a long time (commonly referred to as a Trustee here in the states) who has demonstrated that they can be trusted and have shown good behavior over the course of several years in the institution they're incarcerated in, then I see no problem allowing them some hobby outlet to a limited extent, provided they don't share a cell or space with someone who could or would take those hobby supplies and use them to make weapons.

That said, and I may catch flak for saying this, but Prison/being incarcerated should not be fun. That's not to say that people can't be permitted some form of enjoyment while they are imprisoned, far from it. Television, books, even continuing education/university courses via internet are all excellent examples of things a prisoner could have access to that would allow them to pass the time and also better themselves while they are imprisoned.

That's my opinion on the matter, and bear in mind I am coming from a position of being in law enforcement here, so my perspective is a little different than most.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Terminated by a terminator model. What a way to go.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Prison is rehabilitation as much as punishment.

This is pretty much where I stand on it. Unless they did something really horrible to get themselves a life sentence, they will be at some point re-entering society.

While the angry part of you might want to think "they are in prison because they did something wrong so feth them" there should also be another part that realises they are still just people, they will have to firstly adjust to being in prison then secondly to being back in society, there's typically as many there for non-violent crimes as violent ones (in the US especially there's a huge number of people there on drugs charges which have debatable efficacy in the first place), a large number of them have mental illnesses, they often have families that end up being the victims as well and frankly there's an argument that many inmates shouldn't be there at all or for much reduced sentences.

In that context I think being able to pursue a hobby like building airfix kits isn't a bad thing at all as long as it's not done at the expense of safety. I think as far as the mental health of the person is concerned it's preferable to watching TV, playing video games or staring at a wall. You have to strike a balance between "they aren't there to have fun" and "keeping yourself occupied in a somewhat enjoyable manner is an important factor in general sanity".

If anything I'd say punishment is secondary to rehabilitation because rehabilitation is more important for society as a whole, unless you're just going to pretend they're not people and pigeon hole them all regardless of circumstances and context.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Prison is rehabilitation as much as punishment.

This is pretty much where I stand on it. Unless they did something really horrible to get themselves a life sentence, they will be at some point re-entering society.

While the angry part of you might want to think "they are in prison because they did something wrong so feth them" there should also be another part that realises they are still just people, they will have to firstly adjust to being in prison then secondly to being back in society, there's typically as many there for non-violent crimes as violent ones (in the US especially there's a huge number of people there on drugs charges which have debatable efficacy in the first place), a large number of them have mental illnesses and frankly there's an argument that many inmates shouldn't be there at all or for much reduced sentences.

In that context I think being able to pursue a hobby like building airfix kits isn't a bad thing at all as long as it's not done at the expense of safety. I think as far as the mental health of the person is concerned it's preferable to watching TV, playing video games or staring at a wall. You have to strike a balance between "they aren't there to have fun" and "keeping yourself occupied in a somewhat enjoyable manner is an important factor in general sanity".

If anything I'd say punishment is secondary to rehabilitation because rehabilitation is more important for society as a whole, unless you're just going to pretend they're not people and pigeon hole them all regardless of circumstances and context.

I'd agree. I'd go so far to say that punishment shouldn't be a goal at all. Our goals should only be to:

A) Prevent further harm from the criminals actions.
B) Deter future incidents of the crime from both the criminal them self and others.
C) Rehabilitation

No other goals have any merit at all, least of all Punishment for it's own sake. Punishment is one tool that can be of use in meeting these goals particularly B. However we should accept that the guiding principle that we should always seek to cause the least possible harm to our fellow human beings. If given two ways to handle a situation and these goals can all be met by the one that causes less suffering, discomfort or distress to the criminal that's the approach we should use. If the fear is that criminals will huff glue the better solution is not a universal glue ban but to address why they're huffing glue in the first place. Further I think hobbies would be in direct support the goal of rehabilitation because it's something to be invested in. Hell if it's popular enough bring in painting less, give 'em something to focus on. Use it as a spring board for more constructive growth.

For anyone wondering.

In UK prison (dependent on location)you are given on arrival:

Toothbrush
Disposable Safety Razor
Tough Plastic Knife, Fork, Spoon, Cup and Plate

You can order from 'canteen'

For arts and crafts: Matchsticks, Safety Cutter (glorified nail clippers) and sandpaper and PVA Glue.

These are available to the majority of inmates (who do not have any restrictions based on safety issues).

Bread is a filler food and is readily available. As is sugar in canteen packs. Fruit is also around in some quantity - Since bottles of pop can be brought on the canteen and water is abundant an alcohol of varying degrees of potency can be brewed relatively easily.

The prison in question (IIRC) has educational facilities where sharp implements can be used.

Paints are also available to buy and in some cases be brought in by visitors.

HMP IOW are using the glue as a smokescreen to save work.