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So, a little while ago the new Battletome for Age of Sigmar, covering the Seraphon (Lizardmen), plopped onto my desk and I have been studying it carefully. We must ask ourselves the eternal question: Is it any good?

As always, more piccies here (and, in this book, they are worth it...): https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/review-battletome-seraphon/



As a fan of Age of Sigmar, I had a little trepidation when approaching this book. With the other forces released thus far (Stormcast and Bloodbound, with a healthy dollop of Sylvaneth and Pestilens), I pretty much knew what I was getting. The Stormcasts had lots of questions attached to them, but the answers are slowly coming, and Khorne will always be Khorne. However, I never really got into the Lizardman in Fantasy Battle and they were always kinda just ‘Aztec lizards whose floating mages might just be able to nobble my High Elf wizards on a good day’. Not much to build upon.

In Age of Sigmar, there is a whole new take on them but are they going to feel like celestial avengers or will they still seem like Aztec lizards? Bear in mind that a change in viewpoint is not going to be helped by the lack of new models in this wave of releases. Will round bases and a change of paint schemes be enough?

As we have come to expect, you absolutely cannot hammer GW for the artwork in the Age of Sigmar books, and Seraphon is no exception – in fact, it may well be the prettiest Age of Sigmar book released thus far. Speaking as a publisher myself, the amount of resources that have been ploughed into this game on just the art and design side is nothing short of titanic. Frankly, I am in awe.

The above picture is a depiction of when the Stormcast first encountered the Seraphon. The result did not go well for the Bloodbound who were close by…

The first section of the book, as with the other Battletomes, covers the background behind the Seraphon, who they are, what they are, how they function. This bit is going to be important for the Seraphon…

GW clearly want to retain a sense of mystery around the Seraphon (devotees of the 40k background will be well familiar with this tactic), so they reveal things without really saying anything – there is a lot you have to read into and, to an extent, they leave you to make your own mind up. There are a lot of passages that say things like ‘some scholars believe X, while others say Y is more likely’. Which one is correct? Or are they both wrong? Up to you!

This is a good move for two reasons. While some readers may be frustrated (‘why don’t they just tell me what is going on?!?’), it does two things. First, it provides little hooks that GW’s writers can come back to and revisit at a later date. No sense getting annoyed at that, GW have always done it. Second, it gives room for players to breathe in creating their own myths and legends within the game. Two different players can have two different takes on the Seraphon – and they will both be right.

The above, incidentally, I am pretty sure is a Slann spaceship, one of the vessels that carried them from the World That Was.

So, what are they up to now?

Well, reading through the background chapter, it looks like the Lizardmen are all dead – it has been a long, long time since the World That Was, and Lizardmen are no more. However, the Slann are still about and they are hard. There is no mortal match for their magic, they can travel effortlessly between the Realms without needing gateways, and they summon armies by remembering the old Lizardmen.

However, it is not all faceless, in the way that (say) daemons or undead are. A Slann does not look on the battlefield and think ‘those Bloodreavers are getting a bit close, I could use some Skinks led by an Oldblood’. No, instead he might think ‘Oldblood Bob always knew how to deal with Khorne’s lackeys, and I know those Skink rascals Sydney, Jeff and Torsten are always up for a scrap’.

Well, maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea…

The Slann are the only living remnants of the Seraphon, and the rest are conjured memories – but they are memories of ‘real’ Seraphon and, while made manifest, really are the old lizards.

But not physically. There is a great little sidebar that depicts a vampire going up against the Seraphon. Feeling a bit peckish, she bites into a Saurus, then realises she is not drinking blood but pure celestial energy (not great for a vampire). Then the Saurus turns round and bites her head off…

The next part of this chapter looks at the various units that make up the Seraphon and how they are arranged (if you have read White Dwarf you will know all about the constellations and how the Slann arrange their forces, so I won’t go into that here). Here again, we get a lot of the Scholarspeak.

For example, you have the Oldblood, who acts as the general of the Saurus Warriors, nice and simple. Opposite him is the Sunblood, and it is suggested that, being really rather powerful, he is either one of the first Seraphon that was remembered back, or possibly represents a new evolution of the Seraphon as the race transforms into something completely new (which will kinda raise some questions in itself – evolving memories?).

Next up is the colour scheme pages, and there are a lot here – far more variations and ideas than in the Stormcast and Bloodbound books combined. Bascially, you are going to find an idea here you like, but here is also my first real criticism. While there are plenty of colour schemes to choose from, nowhere is there any guide on how to actually paint them, as there have been in past books. Just a hint at what colours were used would have been good, because…

The next chapter is the colourful ‘loadsa minis’ pages, showing you the units of the Serpaphin. It was here that something ‘clicked’ for me.

You see, I don’t think the old ‘natural’ colours of Lizardmen really work for the Seraphon, but I think the bright ‘heavenly’ colours do – they nicely set the Seraphon apart as celestial beings of memory, and I made the decision to make my Seraphon (certainly the bigger creatures) purple. Barney jokes aside, you can see in the photos that purple just works.

It would have been nice to know which base colours, washes and layers they used to get that rich colour. Now I am going to have to do some digging and experiment…

There are three Battleplans in this book (as with the other Battletomes) and, as before, they are used to not just put in some cool battles but to expand and enhance areas of the background – though they do not link into a campaign like the big hardbacks, which is a shame. Some of the battles in other Battletomes did link into those campaigns, and it was appreciated. Maybe these will become ‘relevant’ with the release of the next big hardback…

Anyway, of particular interest is the first, which depicts a Slaaneshi force getting it in the neck from the Seraphon. A Slaaneshi Herald is looking for her lost god, and arrives at a temple expecting answers. Instead, she gets a lizard to the face.

Incidentally, these Battleplans do not explicitly state which Realm they are being fought in, and they are not the first Battleplans to do this. On the one hand, this is good as it means you can approach them however you like, but on the other it means the background is a little bit loose in these areas. I get the sense, though, that this battle is ‘supposed’ to be in the Realm of Death.

Once again, battle maps are provided, and GW has done a great job here.

The next battle is (I think) in the Realm of Life and sees a combined Pestilens and Nurgle daemon force face off against the Seraphon, and the last Battleplan features the Stormcasts and Seraphon teaming up against the Bloodbound in what has to be the Realm of Fire.



This picture comes from that battle, and I do quite like it – it has a real ‘I’m going to hit it in the face!’ feel to it…

The last major chapter of the book is full of Warscrolls, and there are a fair few – am whopping 27 of them, and that is before you get to the Battalion Warscrolls. Basically, if it has scales and is in the current range, the Warscroll is here.

There are six Battalion Warscrolls altogether:

Sunclaw Starhost: Sunblood leading 3 units of Saurus Warriors, giving them Rend and more attacks.
Eternal Starhost: 3 units of Saurus Guard led by an Eternity Warden, very defensive but you won’t want to go near them.
Firelance Starhost: Scar-Veteran on Cold One or Carnosaur, leading a charge of Saurus Knights. This one is going to look good on the battlefield, and they are both quick and deadly on the charge.
Shadowstrike Starhost: Skink Priest leading a bunch of Skinks and flyers, the latter of which can drop within 3″ of an enemy from the sky while the rest advance close to the enemy before a battle starts.
Thunderquake Starhost: If you want the heavyweights, this is the one for you – an Engine of the Gods or Troglodon leading a couple of Stegadons or Bastiladons, and attended by Kroxigors or Razordons/Salamanders. And the Battalion allows them to constantly heal themselves!

Finally, there is the Starbeast Constellation, which basically adds all of the above together, adds a couple of Heroes, makes them fearless (no Battleshock tests – ever) and as many Command Abilities as you like.

The book rounds off with, as with all Battletomes, the 4 page rules set.

Summary
Well, this book did not answer all my questions about the Seraphon and, with hindsight, I realise it was never going to! It does explain the nature of the Seraphon and how the Slann are working towards their great plan of creating perfect order across all Realms, and there is enough to ‘hang’ your own armies and battles upon. So, in that regard, it works. Perhaps most importantly, it has begun to turn me away from the simple ‘Aztec lizards’ idea of the Seraphon and I am now looking at them as proper celestial warriors of memory led by immortal(-ish) intellects that are second to none.

So, I would have to say this book has succeeded.

Should you buy it?

Well, if you are using Seraphon and are not a dedicated AoS app user, having all the Warscrolls in one place may be worth the price of admission alone.

If you are more interested in following the Age of Sigmar storyline… there may not be much here for you. I am a little hesitant in saying that because while all the other Battletomes did, in at least some sense, extend the storyline of Sigmar’s great invasion, apart from saying the Seraphon have arrived and are helping, this book does not add a great deal. So, no direct extension of the background.

However, reading this book, I do rather get the feeling that it is setting the scene for what is to come. The Seraphon are not going to be going away any time soon, so knowing who and what they are will benefit you. There are also little snippets throughout that may be of interest, such as that Battleplan featuring Slaaneshi forces – as well as the Battleplan itself, that section has five pages dedicated to the background behind it, so it may not be trivial. The same applies to the other Battleplans.

It is also worth pointing out that of you like pretty, characterful books, Battletome: Seraphon is worth picking up. This may be one of GW’s nicest looking books yet.

Overall though, I would rate this book as a worthy addition to the Age of Sigmar line, and I can see some purple lizards in my future…

So, Lizardmen being conjured memories turns out to be true. This is all so strange...

Thanks for the review, as always, Matt! The production values look insane, but I'm very disappointed in the "conjured memories" bit... even Demons have more "personality" insofar as they are actually individuals, even if their physical form can change and is fleeting. With the Seraphon, it seems that individuals, while retaining their sense of "self" while summoned, start from scratch each time and do not retain memories, or evolve, between summonings... am I correct in my assumptions? If so, that's a bummer.

 Mymearan wrote:
start from scratch each time and do not retain memories, or evolve, between summonings... am I correct in my assumptions?

There is one hint at possible evolution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CoreCommander wrote:
This is all so strange...

I know what you mean. Still, after reading the book, I am finding myself beginning to warm up to them, so I have to figure the book is a success...

Thanks for the info, Matt.

Even though I do rail constantly against AoS, I must admit to beinga bit disappointed that they did go through with the "conjured from dreams" shtick and it feels that GW is trying to provide information without really providing it.
I feel the book would be much more valuable background-wise if they ditched the (very WHFB-reminiscent) trope of providing various possibilities of origin/backstory from different "sources" - while I understand that it does fit into the dreamlike, insubstantial feel they want to give the Lizardmen, at the moment AoS needs firm, concrete background to back it up

Great review. That battleplan map for the Temple of the Dead Gods looks so damn cool, wow! I cannot wait for a battletome of an army I collect!

It sounds like they are setting up the Seraphon for something new in the distant future. This whole "memories conjured" thing makes it feel like the old models are memories conjured from the old world - like literally, these are memories of WHFB. Making them daemons born from celestial energy means that they could take other forms (I assume. I'm not well versed in the pre-AoS lore). This could be a case of them saying, here's the Lizardmen now - go forth and enjoy - but we're leaving the lore open for a different type of Lizardmen a few years from now.

 Sqorgar wrote:
It sounds like they are setting up the Seraphon for something new in the distant future. This whole "memories conjured" thing makes it feel like the old models are memories conjured from the old world - like literally, these are memories of WHFB. Making them daemons born from celestial energy means that they could take other forms (I assume. I'm not well versed in the pre-AoS lore). This could be a case of them saying, here's the Lizardmen now - go forth and enjoy - but we're leaving the lore open for a different type of Lizardmen a few years from now.

Which seems like an incredibly lazy way to go about doing it to me. This was their opportunity to make changes, this was their update to Lizardmen, this was the release of the Seraphon. What they get for their release is nothing but old models, many of which are really showing their age, especially compared to some of the newer kits in the Lizardmen range, let alone the new models.

Honestly, for a company that describes themselves as a model company first, second, and third, they should be ashamed to release a "new faction", and if you're one of the people who thinks that AoS should be judged on its own merits, not on what WHFB was, that's exactly what the Seraphon are, containing nothing but old models. The mainstay of the range, the Saurus kit, is how many years old at this point? Look at it compared to the more modern kits. Hell, look at it compared to the rider from the Carnosaur kit, it looks like two different species at this point, not an older, grizzled veteran like its supposed to be.

I was really looking forward to this release, because I was hoping for them to update the older kids, come out with some new ones, and be pretty wicked. I had even saved up some money to start a large army, which has now gone to upgrading my computer instead.

Thank you for the review. I'm glad that you do these.

I'm disappointed by this, of course. I realize that there's still some ambiguity, but I'm kind of tired of waiting for more detail, when the details we get tell me more and more that this setting is just not for me.

If you do get some lizardmen, I will say that regardless of anything, I found the Bastiladon a blast to paint.

 toasteroven wrote:
Thank you for the review. I'm glad that you do these.

I'm disappointed by this, of course. I realize that there's still some ambiguity, but I'm kind of tired of waiting for more detail, when the details we get tell me more and more that this setting is just not for me.

If you do get some lizardmen, I will say that regardless of anything, I found the Bastiladon a blast to paint.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but you could play your Lizardmen as a surviving pocket tucked away in one of the mortal realms.

 Sqorgar wrote:
This whole "memories conjured" thing makes it feel like the old models are memories conjured from the old world - like literally, these are memories of WHFB.

AOS has had several moments like these, that are poignant and sadly nostalgic - that those Fantasy players playing AOS are survivors of a grand cataclysm, playing a different game using the shadows of things we once loved - while also being a bit insulting to us vets on GeeDub's part. But that's neither new nor entirely on topic.

Thanks for the review Matt, I've been very curious to see how the lizards were repackaged and/or revamped - turns out more of the former As an old time LM player (they were my first proper army, back when they premiered in force with WHFB 5E), things don't actually look much different. Even the colors are what I'd expect - lizards have long been one of the brightest armies on the block. Without new models the Aztek Lizards shtick remains strong, which suits me just fine. GW's attempt to make that Cosmic Aztek Lizards is shruggable, as there's a pretty strong celestial worship angle to the line and lizard fluff as is. So I suppose if these Seraphon were going to tell me something about how WHFB lines are rebuilt into AOS lines ... I'm still left waiting.

Aside: I honestly wish these books were cheaper, as I'd like to pick up ones for armies I care about, such as this one, but can't justify it when I don't need to buy the rules. If GW had retained some of their more stylized artistic talent (two words: Adrian Smith) in addition to the rather flat, overly-colored, vaguely CCG art I've seen in most AOS publications, I'd be more inclined to plonk for the books, but meh.

In which case, all the more thanks for reviewing

- Salvage

 Bottle wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
Thank you for the review. I'm glad that you do these.

I'm disappointed by this, of course. I realize that there's still some ambiguity, but I'm kind of tired of waiting for more detail, when the details we get tell me more and more that this setting is just not for me.

If you do get some lizardmen, I will say that regardless of anything, I found the Bastiladon a blast to paint.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but you could play your Lizardmen as a surviving pocket tucked away in one of the mortal realms.

Yeah, one of my first thoughts was something along the lines of my lizardmen coming from a temple city that got stuck in a... time bubble, or something, and they only just now emerged. But it's not my best thought.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Which seems like an incredibly lazy way to go about doing it to me. This was their opportunity to make changes, this was their update to Lizardmen, this was the release of the Seraphon. What they get for their release is nothing but old models, many of which are really showing their age, especially compared to some of the newer kits in the Lizardmen range, let alone the new models.

Not lazy, realistic. GW has only so much production capability per year and they aren't going to just redo the entire line over night. The major races (human, elf, dwarf, orc) will probably get significant changes, while the others will get stop gap measures to make them available. It's like how when a new 40k version comes out and you can keep playing your old Tyranids, but eventually they'll release some new models and a new codex. Well, AoS doesn't really have an old version yet, so they need to find a compromise.

As for the age, the 8th edition Lizardmen models came out in August 2013, so they are just over two years old. Not sure which models were new or old though.

Honestly, for a company that describes themselves as a model company first, second, and third, they should be ashamed to release a "new faction", and if you're one of the people who thinks that AoS should be judged on its own merits, not on what WHFB was, that's exactly what the Seraphon are, containing nothing but old models.

Age of Sigmar is four MONTHS old, and WHFB has a dozen(?) different factions (and AoS seems to be adding more). It is absurd to expect everything to be redone in that short of time. I know patience is in short supply on the internet, but don't you think that's asking a bit much? The Seraphon had a battletome and an entire army's worth of usable models released in the span of... let me check... one day. It's not like they are stretching this release out over weeks, saying here is our "new faction". They are saying, we just reboxed all the Lizardmen and gave them new lore.

I was really looking forward to this release, because I was hoping for them to update the older kids, come out with some new ones, and be pretty wicked. I had even saved up some money to start a large army, which has now gone to upgrading my computer instead.

I would legitimately be surprised if they didn't add new Seraphon models in the future. But the Lizardmen have always been one of the peripheral armies (they are DLC for Blood Bowl 2, weren't added as a faction in Warhammer Invasion until one of the last releases, weren't in any other video or board game that I can remember). They aren't going to get the star treatment above the other factions.

That's kind of my point, though. It's not a new faction, the only thing they did was put the models in different boxes with a different pack of bases. Bit here's the thing, this was the Seraphon debut. This was their day. And what they get is exactly what they had before, and new fluff saying that they're not really Lizardmen anymore, they're the memories of Lizardmen past. The previous repacks were subfactions, so it made sense that they wouldn't get much. However this is the whole faction, this is essentially the third faction for AoS beside Sigmarines and Bloodbound. And the newest models are two/three years old.

They had the opportunity here to remake the Saurus, they could have done a dual kit with warriors and guard if they wanted. That and updating a few of the finecast kits to plastic would have been enough. And honestly, I would have bought the crap out of new Suarus models. The ones released on '13 are beautiful.

And the argument that Lizardmen were a peripheral army doesn't mean a damn thing anymore. As you love to point out, this isn't WHFB anymore, it's AoS, and Seraphon are the third faction. They're the first after Sigmarines and Bloodbound to get a battletome. I'd say that makes them a main army, more so than elves, humans, dwarves, or anything else at the moment.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
It sounds like they are setting up the Seraphon for something new in the distant future. This whole "memories conjured" thing makes it feel like the old models are memories conjured from the old world - like literally, these are memories of WHFB. Making them daemons born from celestial energy means that they could take other forms (I assume. I'm not well versed in the pre-AoS lore). This could be a case of them saying, here's the Lizardmen now - go forth and enjoy - but we're leaving the lore open for a different type of Lizardmen a few years from now.

Which seems like an incredibly lazy way to go about doing it to me. This was their opportunity to make changes, this was their update to Lizardmen, this was the release of the Seraphon. What they get for their release is nothing but old models, many of which are really showing their age, especially compared to some of the newer kits in the Lizardmen range, let alone the new models.

Honestly, for a company that describes themselves as a model company first, second, and third, they should be ashamed to release a "new faction", and if you're one of the people who thinks that AoS should be judged on its own merits, not on what WHFB was, that's exactly what the Seraphon are, containing nothing but old models. The mainstay of the range, the Saurus kit, is how many years old at this point? Look at it compared to the more modern kits. Hell, look at it compared to the rider from the Carnosaur kit, it looks like two different species at this point, not an older, grizzled veteran like its supposed to be.

I was really looking forward to this release, because I was hoping for them to update the older kids, come out with some new ones, and be pretty wicked. I had even saved up some money to start a large army, which has now gone to upgrading my computer instead.

Good call, you can then play Vermintide and Warhammer: total war for your old-world fix.

So the lizzies are now space ghosts, who in certain formations are unbreakable like the undead. An endless, faceless tide of demons projected into the mortal realms by powerful, psionic frogs who live in deep space.

At this point I'm waiting for Lion-O and the thundercats to arrive to help sigmar, and then AoS will fully be a 80's kids cartoon whose only purpose is to sell toys.

The best thing to come out of GW is waiting to see what they do next!

 pox wrote:

An endless, faceless tide of demons projected into the mortal realms by powerful, psionic frogs who live in deep space.

Hmm IIRC last time I had a look at WHFB lizardmen they were a bunch of stupid as f* crocodiles, kind of intelligent dinosaur men who could think semi-reasonably only when dealing with matters of war and cunning little lizards who lived to interpret the stomach sounds of their endlessly slumbering fat toad overlords. All of these, except the toads, used to spawn from magical pools of goo built by a mysterious space faring civilization.

Let's face it - the new idea for lizardmen is no more stupid than the old one

Great review as always Matt

 CoreCommander wrote:

 pox wrote:

An endless, faceless tide of demons projected into the mortal realms by powerful, psionic frogs who live in deep space.

Hmm IIRC last time I had a look at WHFB lizardmen they were a bunch of stupid as f* crocodiles, kind of intelligent dinosaur men who could think semi-reasonably only when dealing with matters of war and cunning little lizards who lived to interpret the stomach sounds of their endlessly slumbering fat toad overlords. All of these, except the toads, used to spawn from magical pools of goo built by a mysterious space faring civilization.

Let's face it - the new idea for lizardmen is not that much outrageous than the old one

If you're going that way, then anything that GW vomits out related to AoS can be happily accepted because WHFB had some outrageous ideas for the original factions too.

Well yes, you are right, but compressing an idea into a single sentence often makes it sound stupid and does not treat the idea fair enough. That was my point. Old lizardmen had their lore built up during the years. If you had to choose now between dinosaurs spawning from a puddle of magic goo and one summoned from the memories of an ancient being what would you choose (providing you know nothing else)?

 CoreCommander wrote:
Well yes, you are right, but compressing an idea into a single sentence often makes it sound stupid and does not treat the idea fair enough. That was my point. Old lizardmen had their lore built up during the years. If you had to choose now between dinosaurs spawning from a puddle of magic goo and one summoned from the memories of an ancient being what would you choose (providing you know nothing else)?

The previous, simply because it seems more plausible than the first.

And not, this is me not being biased, amazingly.

Well, I am biased and would certainly choose the goo just because I still cling to the old setting. I could see a new player choosing the latter, though... (not everyone, but someone will like it eventually)

 CoreCommander wrote:
Well yes, you are right, but compressing an idea into a single sentence often makes it sound stupid and does not treat the idea fair enough. That was my point. Old lizardmen had their lore built up during the years. If you had to choose now between dinosaurs spawning from a puddle of magic goo and one summoned from the memories of an ancient being what would you choose (providing you know nothing else)?

I didn't mean to be so flippant, I was just so shocked that the reality was far worse than I expected that I wrote a "from the gut" post.


From everything I was able to glean from the excellent review Matt posted and what pictures I could see, I do not like the new seraphon. I find the new ideas childish and fantastical. They are now yet another faceless race of endlessly spawning "memories" that are immortal and can never be killed or harmed in any way, a faceless race of immortal beings. Yet again there is no human element, or flaw. Who cares if they all get killed, the slann will just remember them again. Theyre is nothing for me as a player to connect to in this new fluff, they are basically dream tyranids at this point.

I also agree with you that they never really "fit" into WHFB, except maybe as a "lost world/explorer" situation. I did enjoy the lustria expansion and played through the campaign with a fiend, both as my skaven fighting his lizzies, and my lizzies fighting his skaven. However, I always liked the old world more than lustria. only having explorers, dark elves, skaven, and a little chaos made it hard to make stories with a lot of the other races, and likewize it never made sense to have lizzies raiding the old world across the pond.

Thanks for the review, Matt - it's great that you're getting the background out there for folks to read and pick over, even if they've got absolutely no interest in giving GW their money! Well done, as always.

Something I noticed over on Matt's blog from the pictures...the names are really starting to bug me. I mean, they were never good, but we have the Gore Caves of Nirge, the Gallowspire, Obsidia Isle...it sounds like someone's trying to send up mid-century pulp fantasy, except that everything else is supposed to be played absolutely seriously. There was always a certain...tongue-in-cheek element to the Lizardman names (Lord Kroak, Tiktaqto, Grimloq...), but that's clearly supposed to be goofy and amusing. I can't tell if this is Poe's Law or not. And, again, we're never going to hear about these places except as a one-off mention in a line of text describing the giant apocalyptic battle that was fought there. That's excusable when you've already got an established universe with well-known locations, but they're building a setting here. There needs to be far less of this.

Also, I couldn't help but notice was that the battle between the Slaaneshi daemons and Seraphon (which, by the way, I never thought about this, but how are the Slaaneshi daemons getting along without Slaanesh? Aren't all daemons tied to their god? Wouldn't they have disappeared too? Strange.) featured a Dragonfate Dais. I mean, fair play, it's a cool bit of scenery and fits perfectly in a ruined temple, but did they have to call it a Dragonfate Dais in-universe? Really? Is the Herald of Slaanesh going to refer to the platform with the dragon statues as a Dragonfate Dais, capitals included? It's the equivalent of a TV character turning to the screen and winking after name-dropping a particular brand of soda or fast food.

...I can't be too hard on them for that. It's not like WHFB never pulled these shenanigans. Skarsnik, which is otherwise pretty much flawless, has a bit with him going "Hee. Manglers." after watching said beasts carve a swathe of destruction through his enemies...and then they never really come up again. They're both pretty obvious product placement, but it just feels so much cheaper when it's the terrain, rather than a unit that in-universe would probably be referred to as such.

pox wrote:I find the new ideas childish and fantastical.

In a way, they are. But that's what's awesome about it. I see AoS as having a more mythical approach to storytelling, like how Zeus had a headache and out sprung Athena, fully garbed in armor. People live for hundreds of years for no reason. Archaon is a Hercules-like god slayer. It's not supposed to make sense. It's lyrical and metaphorical, larger than life. It's a form of storytelling that we've basically abandoned since Tolkien and Herbert, choosing to focus on the political dishonesty and grim dark reality.

While one's opinion of such storytelling is subjective, I think a lot of people aren't too familiar with it and feel some sort of compulsion to make sense of the senseless. But as someone who loves reading pulp fiction, where Flash Gordon would have sword fights on the wings of his rocket ship flying through space wearing a tiny fishbowl for a helmet, I like it. I like the optimism of it. I'm sick as gak of Tolkien derivatives. It's the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. Sometimes, you just want to blow up entire planets, have sound in the vacuum of space, or have planets that only have a single biome - how do they breathe on Tattooine when there are no trees to produce oxygen? Who cares?! Just go with it!

Spinner wrote:
Something I noticed over on Matt's blog from the pictures...the names are really starting to bug me. I mean, they were never good, but we have the Gore Caves of Nirge, the Gallowspire, Obsidia Isle...it sounds like someone's trying to send up mid-century pulp fantasy, except that everything else is supposed to be played absolutely seriously. There was always a certain...tongue-in-cheek element to the Lizardman names (Lord Kroak, Tiktaqto, Grimloq...), but that's clearly supposed to be goofy and amusing. I can't tell if this is Poe's Law or not. And, again, we're never going to hear about these places except as a one-off mention in a line of text describing the giant apocalyptic battle that was fought there. That's excusable when you've already got an established universe with well-known locations, but they're building a setting here. There needs to be far less of this.

It fits the style they are going for. Larger than life, epic in scale - and that applies to names too.

Think of it like a Godzilla film. Not a good film. Terrible writing. Awful special effects. Embarrassing acting. And yet, if you let yourself get swept away in it, it is an amazing experience. But if you only watch Lawrence of Arabia and Remains of the Day, and you consider yourself too good for Godzilla, and will never know the simple joys contained within.

 Sqorgar wrote:

pox wrote:I find the new ideas childish and fantastical.

In a way, they are. But that's what's awesome about it. I see AoS as having a more mythical approach to storytelling, like how Zeus had a headache and out sprung Athena, fully garbed in armor. People live for hundreds of years for no reason. Archaon is a Hercules-like god slayer. It's not supposed to make sense. It's lyrical and metaphorical, larger than life. It's a form of storytelling that we've basically abandoned since Tolkien and Herbert, choosing to focus on the political dishonesty and grim dark reality.

While one's opinion of such storytelling is subjective, I think a lot of people aren't too familiar with it and feel some sort of compulsion to make sense of the senseless. But as someone who loves reading pulp fiction, where Flash Gordon would have sword fights on the wings of his rocket ship flying through space wearing a tiny fishbowl for a helmet, I like it. I like the optimism of it. I'm sick as gak of Tolkien derivatives. It's the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. Sometimes, you just want to blow up entire planets, have sound in the vacuum of space, or have planets that only have a single biome - how do they breathe on Tattooine when there are no trees to produce oxygen? Who cares?! Just go with it!

I get what they are going for, but it has no "human" element. none. The Space Marines don't exist in a void, they have the more human Imperial Guard. Flash Gordon is a dude encountering weird stuff but he's the catalyst for the viewer, same with Star Wars. You have characters grounded in archtypes.

I get the God immortal legend shenanigans, but without something that can tie it to the viewer its just kinda flat. I had a tyranid army but sold it because it never felt epic, it was always the other guy that got the accolades, win or lose. if a guardsman through sheer luck kills two terminators its an awesome even. if a gaunt does it, well hes just gonna get digested later so who cares. I know this is a personal observation, but it was enough for me to not want to play Tyranids anymore. Lizzies are just another immortal army with no skin in the game, no dog in the race just like the Stormcast Eternals.

I think what it really needs is a killable, human or human-like race to level things out a bit. For me whats going to make or break then fluff of AoS for sure is when they do the empire. Because of the changes I think they are going to get the biggest overhaul, but no matter if they start with the old models or make new ones I really, really want to see how GW deals with just an average joe. gimmie a guy protecting his mushroom farm and his family, or the same guy getting press-ganged into a fighting unit to protect the celestial spire or what not. anything to connect to.

 Sqorgar wrote:


Think of it like a Godzilla film. Not a good film. Terrible writing. Awful special effects. Embarrassing acting. And yet, if you let yourself get swept away in it, it is an amazing experience. But if you only watch Lawrence of Arabia and Remains of the Day, and you consider yourself too good for Godzilla, and will never know the simple joys contained within.

I don't remember the original Godzilla being all that terrible...but I get what you're saying. I love bad movies. I watch "The Room" on a semi-regular basis - but to stretch the analogy further, it's like if the Neill Blomkamp Alien movie got cancelled to launch Operation: Aliens.

And also you had to animate the cartoon yourself, preferably while making 'pew pew' noises whenever someone shot a xenomorph.

From what Matt's written, the Seraphon are summoned into being and are exactly 'themselves' again, so I wouldn't say they're faceless.
They're only 'immortal' in that they aren't technically mortal. They still 'die', until they're summoned again. They don't have a deathless existence, which is kind of the point for immortality.
And while this has no particular effect on anything, the upper limit on summoning Seraphon would presumably be the sum total of all Seraphon the Slann had ever encountered?
I know for some this will be like going through the contents of a latrine with a magnifying glass, but I do think some of the implications are interesting, whether intentionally enigmatic writing or not.
Do individual Seraphon know they aren't 'real'? Do they continue to learn, or are they forever frozen as the Slann remembered them?

RoperPG wrote:
From what Matt's written, the Seraphon are summoned into being and are exactly 'themselves' again, so I wouldn't say they're faceless.
They're only 'immortal' in that they aren't technically mortal. They still 'die', until they're summoned again. They don't have a deathless existence, which is kind of the point for immortality.
And while this has no particular effect on anything, the upper limit on summoning Seraphon would presumably be the sum total of all Seraphon the Slann had ever encountered?
I know for some this will be like going through the contents of a latrine with a magnifying glass, but I do think some of the implications are interesting, whether intentionally enigmatic writing or not.
Do individual Seraphon know they aren't 'real'? Do they continue to learn, or are they forever frozen as the Slann remembered them?

"I know for some this will be like going through the contents of a latrine with a magnifying glass" Kinda does sum up how reading the AoS fluff is like, I agree.

no matter what it feels like the Slann are just playing starcraft. they deploy their units, summon more angelic beings of light as the fight goes on, and win or lose they just "forget" all their troops out of existence until the next fight.

Everything just feels inchoate. I get its all new lore and getting an idea of what its like takes time, but they need to start stringing it together, and introducing stories that give a relatable viewpoint. Right now it just feels like Valhalla, where everyone fights, and live or die they just get up the next day and do it again, without even getting the feast at the end of the day.

 Sqorgar wrote:

In a way, they are. But that's what's awesome about it. I see AoS as having a more mythical approach to storytelling, like how Zeus had a headache and out sprung Athena, fully garbed in armor. People live for hundreds of years for no reason. Archaon is a Hercules-like god slayer. It's not supposed to make sense. It's lyrical and metaphorical, larger than life. It's a form of storytelling that we've basically abandoned since Tolkien and Herbert, choosing to focus on the political dishonesty and grim dark reality.

The crux of the problem IMO is that people, nowadays, are used to being given rational (or plausible) explanation to everything in a game. There are immortal lizards - why are they immortal is far more important than what they are doing. To quote A. and B. Strugatsky (a citation conjured up from memory ) "People don't want to know/learn - they want to understand".

RoperPG wrote:
From what Matt's written, the Seraphon are summoned into being and are exactly 'themselves' again, so I wouldn't say they're faceless.
They're only 'immortal' in that they aren't technically mortal. They still 'die', until they're summoned again. They don't have a deathless existence, which is kind of the point for immortality.
And while this has no particular effect on anything, the upper limit on summoning Seraphon would presumably be the sum total of all Seraphon the Slann had ever encountered?
I know for some this will be like going through the contents of a latrine with a magnifying glass, but I do think some of the implications are interesting, whether intentionally enigmatic writing or not.
Do individual Seraphon know they aren't 'real'? Do they continue to learn, or are they forever frozen as the Slann remembered them?

Well, yeah, they're 'themselves'...over and over again. Forever, or at least until the Slann summoning them dies. And then they're despawned. They exist only for the purpose of war and furthering the goals of their masters, upon which they're completely dependent. And yes, that echoes their old fluff (saurus are only there to fight, society revolves around the Slann and the Great Plan of the Old Ones), but it's taken to extremes. They've lost what culture they had.

...you know what? They don't remind me of Lizardmen nearly as much as they remind me of Tyranids.