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Hi all, I have some frequent discussion regarding the background of 40k in my local community, as well as writing a few fanfic pieces as background for my army. Recently I had some thoughts as to idealogy of the Imperium and how the religious undertones of the setting are very much inspired by Eastern Orthodoxy, Likewise the imperial policy of mass extermination of unwanted species and mutants is closely related to nazi racial theories. However if would be interested to hear what the community has to say about this.

So the main question of the topic is as folow:

How compatable is the mperial Creed with National Socialism ?

Furthermore, I'm also interested in how the insitutions of the Imperium compare to that of the Third Reich, So what would the closest equivalent of the Gestapo or the SS be in the imperium.

Well, the Imperium is a mix of Roman Empire, Medieval Europe and Nazi regime, plus Soviet Union for some aspects (expandable soldiers, commissars, etc).

Sure, their tendency to genocide can be compared to the Nazis. However, the Imperium actually HAS a good reason to do so (Not the Nazis, of course).

Yeah, the Imperium isn't just "Space Third-Reich".
It's really a mix.
I think the only aspect is the "clean the impure" one.
I mean, appart this (and the aquila, even if it is this is debatable), there isn't much which is truly "nazi" and not just totalitarian
The players however tend to make a lot of "space nazis" with guards army.

 godardc wrote:
Yeah, the Imperium isn't just "Space Third-Reich".
It's really a mix.
I think the only aspect is the "clean the impure" one.
I mean, appart this (and the aquila, even if it is this is debatable), there isn't much which is truly "nazi" and not just totalitarian
The players however tend to make a lot of "space nazis" with guards army.

Because nazi or not, black, red and white plus long coats are badass.

But the Imperium always had more of a "Byzantine Empire in Space" feel to me.

The IOM is more inspired by Catholicism than Orthodoxy. The Cardinals, the Inquisition, the armed clergy all have more of a link to Rome than Constantinople or Moscow.

Neither was Nazisim a theocratic movement. It sought to replace religion with Nazi pageantry and philosophy. Any clergy who spoke out against the Nazis ended up in Auschwitz or Dachau alongside the Jews, Romani, gays and intellectuals. See Dietrich Bonhoeffer for a prominent example. Nazi philosophy owed more to Nietzsche's übermensch and Wagner's operas than any religion. The SS had a department dedicated to undermining the influence of religion, both inside 'greater Germany' and in he occupied lands.

In many ways, like other totalitarian regimes (including Communism) Naziism copied he methods of religion while rejecting the substance, aims and philosophies of religion.

The IOM is a pretty pure theocracy, where church and stare have merged until they're almost indistinguishable. The IOM is indeed byzantine (as in rotten with intrigue), and even Byzantine (theocratic and bureaucratic), but it has very little to do with the actual functioning of the Eastern Roman Empire or Eastern Orthodoxy beyond the myriad iconoclasts and heretics that dot it's history.

My two cents.

The Imperium in its current form is pretty much the Western Roman Empire IN SPACE,the successor of an extremely powerful and advanced empire that is beset from all fronts from external and internal enemies,is rife with corruption,heresy and has stagnated economically,socially,politically etc etc. It has little to do with the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium),in fact if anything can be compared to it its Ultramar,not the Imperium itself.It also cant be compared with the Roman Empire in its peak,because thats basically either DaOT humanity or Crusade Era Imperium for the aforementioned reasons.

As far as the religious undertones of the setting,the Ecclesiarchy is pretty much the Roman Church IN SPACE,or at least the popular perception of it,with the powerful religious figures inflaming the masses to purge the xenos,mutants and heretics,having direct control on planets,armed forces and organizations and of course,the existance of Crusades,a concept wholy alien to the Eastern Orthodoxy.(Fun fact,when the first crusaders arrived in Constantinople during the 1st Crusade and explained their rationale behind the whole thing,the Byzantines reply was:WTF?)

Calling the Imperium Nazist is almost as ignorant as calling the Tau communists;the Imperium isnt some kind of close knit totalitarian regime ruled over with an iron fist by a group/party of people who share a similar ideology.Its more like the Holy Roman Empire where there are a bunch of autonomous or semi autonomous states that form a coalition to protect their common interests from external threats.The High Lords of Terra could be compared to the Electors of the Reichstag,only instead of states they represent organizations.And just like the various german states,they too can often find themselves at war with each other.Also,the rule of the "Imperium" over the various planets isnt hands on unless its an extremely valuable and strategic planet,requiring only their tithes to be paid and the veneration of the Emperor,unlike the absurd intrusion of the Nazi regime in the private affairs of Germans.

Finally,the genocides conducted by the Imperium against xenos,heretics and mutants arent the result of an arbitrary ideology of a group of people but the result of millenia of exposure to the dangers of actually letting them live.Humanity was enslaved by aliens during the Age of Strife and faced a constant threat of extinction by xenos ever since.As for the other two categories,well,we all know what exists in the Warp and what its capable of,so letting the people who can be used as conduits to it live is a death sentence for billions others.

 LethalShade wrote:
Well, the Imperium is a mix of Roman Empire, Medieval Europe and Nazi regime, plus Soviet Union for some aspects (expandable soldiers, commissars, etc).

Plus the Spanish Inquisition, European colonial expansion, the British Empire, the Renaissance...

And let's not forget the huge variety of literary influences that inspired the initial setting.

Definitely not just futuristic Nazis, even if the emperor was Hitler.

And just why is this something people wonder about? The IoM is set in a fictional universe populated by space elfs and homicidal robots. Not the real world

Not at all. The Imperium is a feudal society. Hitler despised feudalism and the old nobility of Germany, so he would probably not like the Imperium at all. Hitler was also not very fond of religion.

The Imperium is the Middle Ages in space, it's institutions do not resemble Nazi Germany at all, the Imperial institutions are hereditary, and resemble more medieval guilds than anything modern.
That said, the closest thing to the SS (Hitler's personal army) would be the Space Marines, who were created as the Emperor's personal army. Closest to the Gestapo would be the Inquisition.

How compatable is the mperial Creed with National Socialism ?

Not even slightly, as the Imperial Creed is the religious doctrine and dogma of the Imperium. "The Creed" is what is preached from the pulpits of the Ecclesiarchy, and thus is the law to which its citizens are bound.

I wouldn't say the Imperium really gets its basis from any pre-existent government form. Each planet is run differently, and therefore there are a wide range of government types in effect across the imperium. I'm sure you could find planets under the government of national socialism, but also under communism or capitalism. The only real common theme to the Imperium is religion, yet it isn't a theocracy because its not run specifically by the "clergy", but rather by bureaucrats.
You can't really consider it feudalism, because even though each planet is required to levy troops for the emperor, these troops really have no political power, nor are they "landed" or given any compensation in return.
To those saying that the Imperium takes after Byzantium, or any of the Roman empire: not really. As an ideal, ie beset on all sides by foes, etc etc, maybe. But not much in the way of government or much else really.
Essentially, the Imperium should be viewed as a conglomeration of every government type ever, because thats what it is. It parallels earth in reality, as, while each country today works to advance humanity as a whole, all do it differently, and some better than others.

If you want space nazis, look to the Helghast. The Imperium is more complex than that, and more strongly influenced by other historical sources (the Roman Empire obviously being one of the main sources, as well medieval/gothic aesthetics and religions). Individual SM chapters and IG regiments draw from various cultures, and the Sisters of Battle are like a chapter of Joan of Arcs... or something.

Also, the Imperium is less concerned with issues like social engineering and "racial" purity within humanity itself (see abhumans); they merely want humanity to triumph over all xenos (which could seem similar but it's a stretch when you look at the context). The Imperium also doesn't have an active "Führer" but rather a distant God-figure and is ruled by the High Lords of Terra (or it's own bureaucracy), rather than a single dictator with a personality cult (yes, there's a cult but with what is arguably a real god as it's figure of worship).

@EngulfedObject: To be honest the Imperium has always seemed very concerned about racial purity to me. Numerous Abhuman and Mutants are killed or exterminated on sight on the basis that they are 'deviant' from the established norms. Even tolerated ones like Ogryns are taught catechisms of self-loathing for the 'sin of their birth' as the codex puts it. The Imperium takes racial purity very seriously. Even hatred of Xenos stems from a belief that a single race (themselves) deserve to exist and all other forms of life must be eradicated ideologically. The Imperium preaches a spiritual/physical 'ideal' and anything not conforming to it has a fate of death, labor to death or servitor and like status. That's the goal, sometimes compromises are made in the name of pragmatism, but they're the exception rather than the rule. I think one can hardly say the Imperium doesn't take race seriously.

Certainly National Socialism can easily be seen in the trappings of the Imperium, obviously intended by the creators too, but has been said this is because the trappings of numerous groups are used, combined and recycled in the Imperium's depiction.

Would National Socialism itself be reconcilable with the Imperium? No. At its core the Imperium is a theocracy ruled by bureacrats. Ideologically their motivation derives from typical religious 'we the unique/special/chosen/divine/favored of the true God people should kill everyone and get their stuff' and this is used to justify their actions. But bureacrats long ago became the figures who actually control (or at least try to) and direct this Leviathen.

 Anemone wrote:
@EngulfedObject: To be honest the Imperium has always seemed very concerned about racial purity to me. Numerous Abhuman and Mutants are killed or exterminated on sight on the basis that they are 'deviant' from the established norms. Even tolerated ones like Ogryns are taught catechisms of self-loathing for the 'sin of their birth' as the codex puts it. The Imperium takes racial purity very seriously. Even hatred of Xenos stems from a belief that a single race (themselves) deserve to exist and all other forms of life must be eradicated ideologically. The Imperium preaches a spiritual/physical 'ideal' and anything not conforming to it has a fate of death, labor to death or servitor and like status. That's the goal, sometimes compromises are made in the name of pragmatism, but they're the exception rather than the rule. I think one can hardly say the Imperium doesn't take race seriously.

Certainly National Socialism can easily be seen in the trappings of the Imperium, obviously intended by the creators too, but has been said this is because the trappings of numerous groups are used, combined and recycled in the Imperium's depiction.

Would National Socialism itself be reconcilable with the Imperium? No. At its core the Imperium is a theocracy ruled by bureacrats. Ideologically their motivation derives from typical religious 'we the unique/special/chosen/divine/favored of the true God people should kill everyone and get their stuff' and this is used to justify their actions. But bureacrats long ago became the figures who actually control (or at least try to) and direct this Leviathen.

Actually, each world varies in its treatment of a humans. For instance, one of the worlds at the start of the Priests of Mars sees Ogrynns as semi-normal, and only to be looked down upon because of their utter stupidity. In contrast, other worlds hunt even seemingly benign or docile a humans, like Ratlings, wherever they may be found.

 Anemone wrote:
I think one can hardly say the Imperium doesn't take race seriously.

Well they care about Humans as a species, so that's at least a tier higher than race.

 dusara217 wrote:
Actually, each world varies in its treatment of a humans. For instance, one of the worlds at the start of the Priests of Mars sees Ogrynns as semi-normal, and only to be looked down upon because of their utter stupidity. In contrast, other worlds hunt even seemingly benign or docile a humans, like Ratlings, wherever they may be found.

Yea, they have hands-off approach to most planets as long as they pay the tithe and worship the God-Emperor.

And yes, while they do care about purity, it's about the purity in a world with Chaos corruption so it's a totally different situation. But yes, I can see the connections, but I just don't think they're that strong. Totalitarian regimes will have similarities but the connection to National Socialism isn't any stronger than say the connection to North Korea's regime, or to an imaginary corporate dictatorship ruled by board and with slave labour.

Personally, I don't even think about it. It's a dark fantasy/sci-fi universe on a galactic scale where humanity fights for survival against thirsting gods (and a universe where things like DE who torture to survive exist... just think about that). Who cares if the Imperium is nice by 21st century standards when the alternatives are so much worse?