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Yknow the thing where the Black Templars were abusing a loophole in the codex so that they could have 5,000 or so marines, split into multiple crusades of varying sizes, and how the mighty C:SM now says they only have 1,000 marines?

Is the retcon something you accept / like / prefer / think makes more sense?

So much heresy, so so much.

Send a crusade to purge this writing.

My Templers will remain the demi legion.

 jhe90 wrote:
So much heresy, so so much.

Send a crusade to purge this writing.

My Templers will remain the demi legion.

You mean my templars?!

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
So much heresy, so so much.

Send a crusade to purge this writing.

My Templers will remain the demi legion.

You mean my templars?!

Yes, auto correct and rather late here, missed that one.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
So much heresy, so so much.

Send a crusade to purge this writing.

My Templers will remain the demi legion.

You mean my templars?!

Yes, auto correct and rather late here, missed that one.

no I literally meant they were my templars. I didn't even notice the typo

This is something that definitely disturbed me when I first noticed this change. I felt that out of all the space marines (besides the snow flakes that are space wolves), Black Templars were one of the most blatant non-codex chapters in defying their conventions regarding structure. That was the whole point of the crusader squad and fluff-wise the emphasis on building chapter keeps in various areas in order to handle the demand for manpower in spreading their various independent crusades amongst the stars.

Lowering it down to 1000 makes it so that their idea of multiple crusades occurring at the same time much less believable and feasible. They were one of the few SM where number was a large factor in their campaigns rather than the stereotypical "here's a company/demi-company who saves the day".

A lot of it has to do with GW being too lazy to give them the proper supplement and distinctness from the other SM codices it deserves, despite BA and DA (before their respective new books) being functionally more similar to their codex counterparts than Black Templars.

Black Templars were one of the first factions I was interested in when I first started my foray in 40K, alongside Orks and Guard, (all of which happened to be on Armaggedon!), its been disappointing seeing them get slowly subsumed by the main marine dex, bring back the Holy Orb of Antioch dammit!

I seems like nearly everyone is exploiting some kind of loophole to have more than Codex standard numbers.

The wolves have their great companies, the Ultras have their "extended family" arrangement and it's hinted at being even more flagrant for the DA. Then you have all the BA successors converging on Baal to defend their home system.

It's a topic that's been done to death but 1000 marines really isn't very much! However I agree 100% that it's a shame the Templars lost that little fluff nugget.

I just read the new C:SM, and it never says anything concrete about BT numbers. It just says that they're spread out in multiple Crusades across the Galaxy. Of course, I usually read so fast that I can skip entire sentences, so I could be wrong on that.

The whole thing is heresy. Now we're apparently okay with filthy psykers, as long as they've been "sanctioned" by some poxy human priests? I don't think so! Being rolled in was everything we feared... gaining access to more toys and more competitiveness - at the cost of flavour and character.

what page does it say that ?

it never explicitly states that there is only 1000 from my reading, maybe i missed it but doubt it personally

Either way afaik it's a lie, the Black Templars will always be many time the size of a normal chapter with no real known exact amount and any statement to the contrary is clearly a case of an unreliable author

GAdvance wrote:
it never explicitly states that there is only 1000 from my reading, maybe i missed it but doubt it personally

Either way afaik it's a lie, the Black Templars will always be many time the size of a normal chapter with no real known exact amount and any statement to the contrary is clearly a case of an unreliable author

It would definitely be a case of unreliability on the behalf of the author. Black Templars do what they want, ya know, Crusading, Killing Heretics, etc etc. The usual day at the office

 Anfauglir wrote:
The whole thing is heresy. Now we're apparently okay with filthy psykers, as long as they've been "sanctioned" by some poxy human priests? I don't think so! Being rolled in was everything we feared... gaining access to more toys and more competitiveness - at the cost of flavour and character.

Again, I just re-read the Templar pages from C:SM, and it only mentions them liking Astropaths and Navigators, as they were seen as "conduits of the Emperor" or something like that, not sanctioned Psykers. In fact, it explicitly mentions the fact that they barely tolerate most Psykers.

It is Heresy of the highest order.

 Grimskul wrote:
This is something that definitely disturbed me when I first noticed this change. I felt that out of all the space marines (besides the snow flakes that are space wolves), Black Templars were one of the most blatant non-codex chapters in defying their conventions regarding structure. That was the whole point of the crusader squad and fluff-wise the emphasis on building chapter keeps in various areas in order to handle the demand for manpower in spreading their various independent crusades amongst the stars.

Lowering it down to 1000 makes it so that their idea of multiple crusades occurring at the same time much less believable and feasible. They were one of the few SM where number was a large factor in their campaigns rather than the stereotypical "here's a company/demi-company who saves the day".

A lot of it has to do with GW being too lazy to give them the proper supplement and distinctness from the other SM codices it deserves, despite BA and DA (before their respective new books) being functionally more similar to their codex counterparts than Black Templars.

Black Templars were one of the first factions I was interested in when I first started my foray in 40K, alongside Orks and Guard, (all of which happened to be on Armaggedon!), its been disappointing seeing them get slowly subsumed by the main marine dex, bring back the Holy Orb of Antioch dammit!

Actually the reason behind the retcon by GW mandate is "it makes the Black Templars more powerful". Because suddenly that Crusade with several hundred dudes just became a single squad!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GAdvance wrote:
it never explicitly states that there is only 1000 from my reading, maybe i missed it but doubt it personally

Either way afaik it's a lie, the Black Templars will always be many time the size of a normal chapter with no real known exact amount and any statement to the contrary is clearly a case of an unreliable author

No, it's direct option by GW. Demi Legion Templars are gone for good unless GW suddenly changes its mind next Edition. Also, Unreliable Narrator has nothing to do with the fans deciding "what is a lie and what isn't." The idea that some things in 40k canon are lies is a miscommunication between the writers and the fans.

Well gak. Ollanius Pious really didn't die for the emprah.

I now hate large sections of 40k fluff.

Is there a page number for this 1000 guys thing? I don't see it anywhere.

And that would be 80% combat losses from 5000. Plenty of chapters have taken 80% losses and recovered before.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Is there a page number for this 1000 guys thing? I don't see it anywhere.

And that would be 80% combat losses from 5000. Plenty of chapters have taken 80% losses and recovered before.

Prime example:

The Crimson Fists ('Cousins' of our beloved Black Templars )

It is intriguing that there are two votes for "not heresy"...

Do these people have a reason?

I liked the old fluff about the unkown size of the Black Templars and that even the Inquisiton were aware but looking the other way due to their absolute loyalty.

But I guess they had to keep making new stuf to justify the Dark Angels having their own Codex.........

 dusara217 wrote:
Again, I just re-read the Templar pages from C:SM, and it only mentions them liking Astropaths and Navigators, as they were seen as "conduits of the Emperor" or something like that, not sanctioned Psykers. In fact, it explicitly mentions the fact that they barely tolerate most Psykers.

I wouldn't know anything about the latest Marine codex as I haven't read it. All I know is that upon release there was uproar among BT fans about three things in particular; retcon regarding attitude to psykers, reton regarding worship of the Emperor, retcon regarding the size of the overall Chapter. That's it.

Regarding the Ollanius Pius nonsense, I've demonstrated in the past, with original documents, that the terminator fluff was the original fluff and the guardsman fluff came later.

Well there are 1001 Marines (Not including Dreadnoughts) in the Ultramarines, with 1027 with them. Just to let you know. I don't know if Chapter Masters are included in that number.

sauce: C:SM (6th)

Anfauglir wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Again, I just re-read the Templar pages from C:SM, and it only mentions them liking Astropaths and Navigators, as they were seen as "conduits of the Emperor" or something like that, not sanctioned Psykers. In fact, it explicitly mentions the fact that they barely tolerate most Psykers.

I wouldn't know anything about the latest Marine codex as I haven't read it. All I know is that upon release there was uproar among BT fans about three things in particular; retcon regarding attitude to psykers, reton regarding worship of the Emperor, retcon regarding the size of the overall Chapter. That's it.

1.) Again, the Black Templars only like Navigators/Astropaths, and iirc, their Chapter Tactics prohibit them from taking Psykers.
2.) C:SM says that they worship the Emprah, just like always.
3.) iirc, it still says that the number is unknown.

Having gone over it with a fine-tooth-comb, the 7E codex does not actually say anything about their numbers. I'm getting my sources confused from somewhere.

But it *does* say that they don't hate psykers, and that they think Big E s a gawd.

BT are athiest space Catholics, not mindless followers, GW. Much like the actual Templars were rumoured to be.

BURN THE WITCH!

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Well there are 1001 Marines (Not including Dreadnoughts) in the Ultramarines, with 1027 with them. Just to let you know. I don't know if Chapter Masters are included in that number.

sauce: C:SM (6th)

Smurf sauce is Heresy !



But rest assured the BT won't have more than 1000 Crusades at the same time. Promise.

 1hadhq wrote:

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Well there are 1001 Marines (Not including Dreadnoughts) in the Ultramarines, with 1027 with them. Just to let you know. I don't know if Chapter Masters are included in that number.

sauce: C:SM (6th)

Smurf sauce is Heresy !



But rest assured the BT won't have more than 1000 Crusades at the same time. Promise.

A hundred at most.

Although, some single Templars are like crusades of their own...

...

All previous fluff has said they're well over codex size then, and the new codex says nothing about there size

Seems pretty clear to just assume they're well over codex size then and physically assault anyone who says otherwise?

Well, there is that one BL book that calls them in at around 1000 marines...

Bloody Codex fanbois.

GAdvance wrote:
All previous fluff has said they're well over codex size then, and the new codex says nothing about there size

Seems pretty clear to just assume they're well over codex size then and physically assault anyone who says otherwise?

The only thing that really indicates the now revised size of the BT Chapter in the last Codex was that it says that the Chapter in its history has had "up to a dozen crusades of as a fews as a several battlebrothers to as many as several hundred Marines...........
Also that there are only 10 Black Swords - one of which accompanies each Crusade.

I no longer but the codexes so not sure if the latest version has upaded this.