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So it's soon to be seeing some use. I'm going with the DS as the Vengeance is fun, but the thought of glancing myself to death on so much plasma sucks. So I'm wondering, for now since I will be running it with 2x 6-man bike squads with either 2x Melta or Plasma guns, should i give the Assault Cannon and hope for some luck shots/rending or stick with the Heavy Bolter and save the points? I figured the 24" range isn't such a big deal because he's going to be sticking close to the bikes to give them Stealth/no Overwatch when charging.

I would always keep the dark shroud with heavy bolter. You will find that you are almost always jinking anyways so count on snap firing your weapon on this fantastic support vehicle.

 ansacs wrote:
I would always keep the dark shroud with heavy bolter. You will find that you are almost always jinking anyways so count on snap firing your weapon on this fantastic support vehicle.

So at that point is the upgrade a waste? It's an extra shot, so if I'm gonna be snapfiring either way, it seems like I'd want something a little stronger. My main thing is just that since I'm gonna be running it with an armor hunting group, I considered the stronger weapon to help it hunt light vehicles while giving the bubble.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So at that point is the upgrade a waste? It's an extra shot, so if I'm gonna be snapfiring either way, it seems like I'd want something a little stronger.

When you are talking about improving snap shots you are talking about increasing the damage of the unit less than 1/2 a wound if it fires a full 5 turns in a game. For those 15 pts you could get a gravgun that will reliably contribute 1-2 wounds a in a single shooting attack. The biggest difference though is that the reliability of any attack you perform. Any damage done by a dark shroud is incidental and the dark shroud is unlikely to be able to be relied on. That is because it is already a target for any assault or ignore cover weapons the opponent can get to the dark shroud. It's support abilities are just too good to ignore. Thus when you really need to kill that transport or model on the objective the dark shroud is likely to either be dead or jinking whereas the gravgun in a bike squad or 1/3 extra black knight you get with 15 pts is vastly more reliable to actually perform if they get the chance and is usually less of a priority target (or more durable) until the dark shroud dies.

 jreilly89 wrote:
My main thing is just that since I'm gonna be running it with an armor hunting group, I considered the stronger weapon to help it hunt light vehicles while giving the bubble.

What do you mean by running it with an armour hunting group? As in a RW support squad? If so then the assault cannon could be decent. The assault cannon upgrade is a bit overpriced but it would be nice to be able to contribute against the same targets as the rest of the squad.

Never run Darkshrouds outside of a support squadron. I have two Ravenwing Support Squadrons, i keep the heavy bolter on the Darkshroud and go HB/Typhoon ML on the 3 speeders. With Strafing Run thats a lot of dakka at BS5, 4 Heavy Bolters and 6 Frag or Krak missiles.

If its in a squadron with 3 landspeeders your opponent cannot target it specifically and if you position your speeders cleverly then his ignores cover fire is going to have to grind through 6 hull points before it can hurt your Darkshroud keeping it alive longer, not to mention the 24" overwatch bubble this formation has i have surprised many players by overwatching with the unit he is charging into and then my 2 support squadrons which on more than one occasion has actually killed his charging unit. BS2 overwatch is nothing to complain about in my book.

 ansacs wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So at that point is the upgrade a waste? It's an extra shot, so if I'm gonna be snapfiring either way, it seems like I'd want something a little stronger.

When you are talking about improving snap shots you are talking about increasing the damage of the unit less than 1/2 a wound if it fires a full 5 turns in a game. For those 15 pts you could get a gravgun that will reliably contribute 1-2 wounds a in a single shooting attack. The biggest difference though is that the reliability of any attack you perform. Any damage done by a dark shroud is incidental and the dark shroud is unlikely to be able to be relied on. That is because it is already a target for any assault or ignore cover weapons the opponent can get to the dark shroud. It's support abilities are just too good to ignore. Thus when you really need to kill that transport or model on the objective the dark shroud is likely to either be dead or jinking whereas the gravgun in a bike squad or 1/3 extra black knight you get with 15 pts is vastly more reliable to actually perform if they get the chance and is usually less of a priority target (or more durable) until the dark shroud dies.

 jreilly89 wrote:
My main thing is just that since I'm gonna be running it with an armor hunting group, I considered the stronger weapon to help it hunt light vehicles while giving the bubble.

What do you mean by running it with an armour hunting group? As in a RW support squad? If so then the assault cannon could be decent. The assault cannon upgrade is a bit overpriced but it would be nice to be able to contribute against the same targets as the rest of the squad.

It's going to be running with 2 6-man groups of RW Bikers, with 2x Meltaguns. Besides, the Stealth aura is only like 12" right?

jreilly89 wrote:It's going to be running with 2 6-man groups of RW Bikers, with 2x Meltaguns. Besides, the Stealth aura is only like 12" right?

It is only a 6" bubble of stealth, though only 1 model has to be in range for the unit to get stealth and fear. However keep in mind that due to the reroll failed cover saves if you jink of the ravenwing this means that RW bike squads go from 1/4 (4/16) failed saves to 1/16 and black knights go from 1/6 (6/36) to 1/36 failed saves. The improvement is exponential from a +1 to cover saves. This is only good and not ridiculous when looking at RW bike squads but when you consider RW black knights where they can shoot flyrants out of the sky while jinking for a rerollable 2+ cover save or charge and kill most infantry to take objectives while being nearly immune to most shooting it becomes extremely powerful. There are a lot of work arounds and strategies to mitigate this but it is definitely by far the most powerful aspect of the darkshroud.

Benedict wrote:Never run Darkshrouds outside of a support squadron. I have two Ravenwing Support Squadrons, i keep the heavy bolter on the Darkshroud and go HB/Typhoon ML on the 3 speeders. With Strafing Run thats a lot of dakka at BS5, 4 Heavy Bolters and 6 Frag or Krak missiles.

If its in a squadron with 3 landspeeders your opponent cannot target it specifically and if you position your speeders cleverly then his ignores cover fire is going to have to grind through 6 hull points before it can hurt your Darkshroud keeping it alive longer, not to mention the 24" overwatch bubble this formation has i have surprised many players by overwatching with the unit he is charging into and then my 2 support squadrons which on more than one occasion has actually killed his charging unit. BS2 overwatch is nothing to complain about in my book.

I agree that the support squad is extremely good and definitely one of the better ways to use a darkshroud. However IME darkshrouds are just as good or even better when you take 2-3 of them and run them around supporting your black knight units (usually 4-6 units of 3-4 black knights). This list has just about everything and lets you successfully engage 2-3 targets a turn which is absolutely vital in maelstorm of war as you cannot afford to only be powerful in one part of the board (which is what the support squad tends to encourage). The support squad is certainly more durable than a single darkshroud. However it is nowhere near as durable as 2-3 darkshrouds which is less pts than the support squad. This is because ignore cover shooting tends to come at a cost, ie what is shooting with ignore cover should be considered. Much of the time I have lost darkshrouds it wouldn't matter in the least whether it had another 2-3 landspeeder in the unit as well. Major ignore cover that have killed my darkshrouds; Tau buff mander w/ broad sides, Tau markerlights combined fire, Tau crisis suit star, SM Grav Cent Star, IG ignore cover order on 2 units of 3x earthshaker heavy artillery, CWE D-scythes, and assault. I am not saying the support squad is bad or even not great however it is definitely not the only way to play a darkshroud (probably the only way to even attempt to play a vengeance though).

 ansacs wrote:

I agree that the support squad is extremely good and definitely one of the better ways to use a darkshroud. However IME darkshrouds are just as good or even better when you take 2-3 of them and run them around supporting your black knight units (usually 4-6 units of 3-4 black knights). This list has just about everything and lets you successfully engage 2-3 targets a turn which is absolutely vital in maelstorm of war as you cannot afford to only be powerful in one part of the board (which is what the support squad tends to encourage). The support squad is certainly more durable than a single darkshroud. However it is nowhere near as durable as 2-3 darkshrouds which is less pts than the support squad. This is because ignore cover shooting tends to come at a cost, ie what is shooting with ignore cover should be considered. Much of the time I have lost darkshrouds it wouldn't matter in the least whether it had another 2-3 landspeeder in the unit as well. Major ignore cover that have killed my darkshrouds; Tau buff mander w/ broad sides, Tau markerlights combined fire, Tau crisis suit star, SM Grav Cent Star, IG ignore cover order on 2 units of 3x earthshaker heavy artillery, CWE D-scythes, and assault. I am not saying the support squad is bad or even not great however it is definitely not the only way to play a darkshroud (probably the only way to even attempt to play a vengeance though).

Its interesting to see us being at crossed purposes regarding this unit but still finding successful strategies to make them effective. I dont run squads of Black Knights, i tend to run a single "deathstar" unit of Command squad with attached IC's and bulk up on mutliple regular bike squads having at least two squads supported by a support squadron and a vengeance. The "deathstar" runs itself with Librarian.I-Chaplain and Sammael IC's attached. The Libby i run with telepathy and its very unusual to not get shrouding or invisibility in my powers if not both.

If there is anything left to charge after a round of shooting from bike squads, a support squadron and a vengeance then i'll charge it with the regular bike squad. I love the Vengeance, while firing the heavy 3 mode does as you say leave you open to glancing yourself to death but consider that rolling a 1 isnt an instant hull point, you roll a second d6 and on a 4+ ignore the damage. The Strength of the Vengeance is in firing that 5" pie plate of yummy AP2 goodness.

 Benedict wrote:
Its interesting to see us being at crossed purposes regarding this unit but still finding successful strategies to make them effective. I dont run squads of Black Knights, i tend to run a single "deathstar" unit of Command squad with attached IC's and bulk up on mutliple regular bike squads having at least two squads supported by a support squadron and a vengeance. The "deathstar" runs itself with Librarian.I-Chaplain and Sammael IC's attached. The Libby i run with telepathy and its very unusual to not get shrouding or invisibility in my powers if not both.

Darkshroud is definitely one of those utility units which can be used in a variety of lists and still achieve success. It is a good unit at a good pts price.

This makes more sense for you then. With a deathstar such as you run then the value of individual darkshrouds will go down as you have more of your pts concentrated into one portion of the board. IME a single libby would not be able to support a deathstar like that but it is entirely meta dependent and even if the libby gets shut down you are still are able to get a 2+ rerollable cover save as sammy gives the unit skilled rider and the stealth from the darkshroud would boost sammy's jink save to 2+.

Personally I prefer to stay away from deathstars most of the time. I have occasionally toyed with bike, centurion, and power blobb deathstars but not how I usually play.

 Benedict wrote:
If there is anything left to charge after a round of shooting from bike squads, a support squadron and a vengeance then i'll charge it with the regular bike squad. I love the Vengeance, while firing the heavy 3 mode does as you say leave you open to glancing yourself to death but consider that rolling a 1 isnt an instant hull point, you roll a second d6 and on a 4+ ignore the damage. The Strength of the Vengeance is in firing that 5" pie plate of yummy AP2 goodness.

I actually am not as concerned with the vengeance killing itself with gets hot. My problems with it are a combination of factors which just make the entire unit a sort of high stakes gamble with low payout.
1) The unit is a landspeeder in durability with a 36" weapon that has the same Str/AP as every other plasma gun in the army which is a lot of units which are more durable, more tactically flexible, and usually deal more damage as they tend to have special deployment rules to help.
2) It doesn't even have outflank to help you get behind the opponent and it is way to big to DS anywhere you would really want.
3) The weapon is not TL so it is useless against FMC which is one of the places plasma is really meaningful (ie the black knights).
4) Large blasts sound great but a large blast tends to be overall worthless than 3-4 shots of the same weapon. The only situation that a large blast is better than multiple shots is against a DSing enemy. Thus why I think it is actually pretty good in a support squad where it gets interceptor.

The vengeance is a vindicator without the ability to hurt all targets. It would actually be pretty good if it was TL ed and had scout. The gets hot is insult to injury. Sorry for going off topic. The vengeance is just a good counter point of the darkshrouds well designed and clear purpose to a poorly designed unclear purpose vehicle rules.