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HQ
Lv3 crimson slaughter sorceror with divination

TROOPS
Cultists
Cultists

FAST
Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

HEAVY
Fire raptor
Fire raptor
Fire raptor

LORD OF WAR
Khorne Knight

Comm relay

Hide sorceror out of site on relay. Aim for scriers gaze as well. Prescience on the knight. Maybe 4+ invul or ignore cover. Knight is there to tank super heavies.
Those six flyers will wreck any tournament army out there. Nothing can deal with it even half reliably.
I couldn't beat an imperial knight army of 5 easily but the raptors can glance them to death if the khorne knight dies.
Eldar or Marine bike spam will do nothing. Drop cents do nothing. I think this would be insanely hard to beat

Good Luck. I hope they dont zap both the sorc and Knight turn 1.

i do not believe there is an army that can kill a sorceror and squad of cultists hiding in a ruin out of sight as well as a khorne knight with an invul save in the farthest corner of the board.

for turn 1 it is very easy to deploy so far back that I'm completely out of range

Drop pod assault come turn 1 might think otherwise, or those damned Tau smart missiles...

I agree that you need more boots on the ground come turn 1, possibly with something fearless (just imagine losing 3 cultists, sorcerer fails the leadership check, and they run off the board; zonkier things have happened!).

I've got to disagree, I've faced a lot of drop pod armies and I don't find them that intimidating.

drop pod grav isn't going to kill the knight since it can't be immobilized. factoring invul saves it would probably take at least 8 melta shots to kill the knight. maybe more when you factor in scattering, not having space for melta range, having to hit, having to pen, then having to roll a 5+ to blow it up. then factoring in the knight getting a 4++ or 5++ to save it..

a lucky D shot could kill the knight outright but again, it shouldn't be too tough to deploy him out of range for at least the first turn. sure he'd be in the middle of nowhere at the back of the field but i don't care about that.

depends on the table but I'm confident I can find a place for the sorceror to deploy out of line of sight and far enough from the table edge that he's not likely to disappear.

making sure the cultists don't fail and run away is a good point though; I wouldnt have thought of that happening until the first time it did lol.

i had considered running the 6 flyers and then running typhus and 100 ish zombies instead. no chance anything is going through that but on the other hand, it's a pain in the butt to move that many models and they've got zero damage output. taking the knight is a point sink but he's proven to be very survivable and a perfect counter to other knights.

plus, an opponent is going to have to pick a target. neither unit is going to be easy to remove that early in the game.

Love the idea of Typhus, zombies, a knight (nurgle!) and your [slightly reduced] air force. That will stick around, for sure.

I have toyed with using a can of compressed air to quickly move large zombie blobs.

You need one roll on malefic daemonology for your sorcerer to take all those fire raptors x

whys that?

raoiley wrote:
drop pod grav isn't going to kill the knight since it can't be immobilized. factoring invul saves it would probably take at least 8 melta shots to kill the knight. maybe more when you factor in scattering, not having space for melta range, having to hit, having to pen, then having to roll a 5+ to blow it up. then factoring in the knight getting a 4++ or 5++ to save it..

I wouldn't say that. Explodes results deal significant damage to super-heavies and meltas are quite good at exploding (1 in 3 chance). I've taken out an Imperial Knight turn 1 using two multi-melta Helbrutes. Two successful hits, two easy melta pens, two failed invuln saves, two lucky 5+ rolls and it flat out exploded off the board. Granted, there was only a 1% chance of that ever happening Turn 1... but it did and my opponent was simply shocked. Eight meltas might be the average but certainly not what's possible. Relying on averages can cost you the game to an unfortunate dice roll or streak.

AdMech versus your knight and it's dead turn 1 easily. No need for melta when you have long range S10 AP1 Armourbane lasers, or Destroyers with super mega heavy Grav Cannons that fire 6 times EACH (18 grav shots). Or heck, all the Haywire guns and melee that auto harm vehicles. It's not uncommon for a War Convocation to blow up several vehicles before you even get to have a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

raoiley wrote:
whys that?

Because of the Infernal Relic rule.

hm well that stinks. i knew they'd taken the restriction away and I could have more but I guess I'll have to burn a roll on malefic. I haven't read the IA book in a while.

While I acknowledge that statistically there are lots of things that can kill a knight, I stand firm that it's extremely unlikely against a normal army. on turn 1 I'm going to deploy as far back as possible; typically behind a ruin or making sure only my front armour is exposed so I've got a 4++.
In theory I could even run a nurgle knight for shrouded (everyone I play with has agreed and ruled that this is how it should be although it would be dependent on a tournament).

math it out though.. pod cents come down with 15 shots.. statistically they hit 10 times. Out of that 1-2 sixes and the knight ignores one on a 4+.

lets say two pods of melta come down. pod one is on the 4++ and pod two isn't.
squad A hits 3/4. probably safe to assume all 3 pen. going to ignore 1-2 of them. then it's a 30% chance that they roll a 5 to explode. and another 30% chance to roll 3 for max hullpoints. I'll bet my money on that happening very, very rarely.

can't be melee attacked on turn 1 so that's safe.

either way we could all discuss scenarios all day about what might wreck it. the list could be tweaked and i doubt I'll ever actually play it because building one fire raptor is driving me mad. building three would be a breaking point i'm sure.

but judging from the discussion I'd say that no one is arguing that those 6 flyers are almost unstoppable and can probably table most armies pretty easy. since they're fast enough, can hover and still fairly resilient on the ground they can also drop down to score if they want to.

my point is that everyone says chaos marines are weak and don't have strong builds. I'm pretty sure that this list could reliably destroy pretty much any tournament list. as a daemons player I can't think of any counter. scat bikes and wraithknights aren't going to hurt it. marines aren't going to hurt it. maybe tau and admech could threaten a little with shooting but i still think they'd get broken down.

i guess the real question is if you're spending 1200 ish on the flyers, what do you spend the other 650 on when you need an HQ and troops? i like the idea of divination and a comms relay considering how badly you need those flyers to come in. i can't recall.. are there any chaos marines (or allies that could work) to screw with reserves and make sure they happen? is typhus and zombies the best way to go since they're so resilent and will probably be able to score one or two back edge objectives?

my only issue in NOT bringing a knight is having to deal with other superheavies. while the fire raptors can glance down knights, that's a pain in the butt I'd rather not deal with. and it would really suck to get stuck fighting a vehicle I couldn't hurt (even though it's pretty rare to actually see something like a landraider that's causing you headaches)

raoiley wrote:
math it out though.. pod cents come down with 15 shots.. statistically they hit 10 times. Out of that 1-2 sixes and the knight ignores one on a 4+.

I think you're forgetting about Grav Amp. I also want to remind that an AdMech list can have Ballistic Skill 7 turn 1. They're likely to hit with almost everything and roll 6s almost a third of the time.

Assuming AdMech since they have the best odds at this, three destroyers have 18 grav shots and miss only 2 shots with their ballistic skill. That's 16 hits that glance on 6s yet can re-roll failures for another attempt. Every die has 2 chances at a 1-in-6 which is a 30% chance of rolling that 6. That's at least 5 glances from a single three-man squad of cheap destroyers from across the board due to Heavy Grav 30" range. You can save only half of them (unless as is extremely common in dice games you roll a bunch of 1s, 2s, and 3s) and god help you if more anti-armor is on the field (it's AdMech so there is).

raoiley wrote:
lets say two pods of melta come down. pod one is on the 4++ and pod two isn't.
squad A hits 3/4. probably safe to assume all 3 pen. going to ignore 1-2 of them. then it's a 30% chance that they roll a 5 to explode. and another 30% chance to roll 3 for max hullpoints. I'll bet my money on that happening very, very rarely.

Remember, they don't need to roll max hullpoints. They only need two explode results for an average kill. Explode adds D3 hp in addition to the 1 lost for the penetrating hit. Rolling two 2s or a 1 and a 3 will succeed in dealing 6 hullpoints of damage and sending your knight off the table.

There's also armies that can bring a TON of melta in a pod, like Space Wolves who can equip all their Wolf Guard with combi-meltas or even CSM who can drop Chosen with 5 meltas and a combi-melta. Considering the points spent on such a drop is less than the points you spent on your super heavy, it's well worth the investment.

raoiley wrote:
can't be melee attacked on turn 1 so that's safe.

Greater Brass Scorpion. Skyhammer Annihilation Force. You can be melee attacked 1st turn, never think otherwise.

The point here of course isn't that certain lists can beat your knight turn 1. It's that relying on just a single super-heavy to NOT leave the board is a bad way to list build. It can and will with shocking frequency. Such is the way dice games go. I listed an example above where only TWO meltas with enough luck can destroy your knight. It only has a 1% chance of happening, but it's also only 1 possible scenario. Add more melta guns or other armor penetrating shots and each of them will have their own chance to do this. When you start adding up the chances... they accumulate into a rather REALISTIC chance of losing your knight before the game even starts. Even if the list you're up against has a combined 30% chance to destroy it, I'd never risk a tourney on a 1-in-3 roll given how frequently marines die to bolters.

The typhus idea might be better for you, I feel you are relying too much on too little, it is a knight after all and so it will recieve alot of attention, the cultists and sorc people might not bother with too much cause they know its easy to make disappear. And as Arkaine mentioned, watch out for skitarii! When I first ran across them I thought "how cute little irradiated men in tin cans, this will be fun and easy!" Then I found out quickly how them bad boys in drop pods are quite a force! Idk if the skyhammer would give you too much trouble just seeing how I dont think many kit theirs out to deal with Knights turn 1 since they have better targets but they can wreck face on the cultist/sorc.

Anyways as mentioned earlier, dont expect you are safe from turn 1 tabling, crazier things have happened. Not saying its a bad idea or list, just might need a little something to keep you safe on turn 1.