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Hey folks,

I'm working on a list using these two formations as per the list below. Currently I'm sitting a bit below the 1850 limit, just looking for some suggestions as to what to spend the last few points on and any suggestions on potential improvements.

Retaliation Cadre:

Commander - T/L Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster, Iridium armour, shield generator, Puretide engram neurochip - 185

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, T/L SMS, Stim injector - 220

3 Crisis Suits - T/L Plasma Rifles, Plasma Rifles - 171

3 Crisis Suits - T/L Fusion Blasters, Fusion Blasters - 171

3 Crisis Suits - T/L Burst Cannons, Burst Cannons - 151

3 Broadside Suits - T/L High-Yield Missile Pods, T/L SMS - 195


Optimised Stealth Cadre:

6 Stealth Suits - 5x Burst Cannon, 1x Fusion Blaster with target lock - 190

6 Stealth Suits - 5x Burst Cannon, 1x Fusion Blaster with target lock - 190

2 Ghostkeels - Cyclic Ion Rakers, T/L Fusion Blasters, Stim Injectors - 350


Current Total: 1813

What do you reckon?

Cheers,

Cas

Where's your EWOs? Right from the top:

Commander isn't really worth it as a pure shooty unit. You get far more firepower from his points worth of Crisis. I'd go buffmander.

Riptide wants EWO always, stims is less useful. He's little more than a bullet magnet without help from a batman suit his damage output is poor.

I'd have a big unit of Crisis suits somewhere for buffmander usage. At least 7 preferably 8-9 and some Bs10 gundrones. That should be your main agressive unit allowing the other 2 to have a more defensive roll for solo suits is my advice.

Broadsides want EWO as well, perhaps give 1 a target lock instead though that is of less use now they don't have tank hunter as standard.

Keep the stealthsuits at 3s. Only buying more if you have spare points. The Ghostkeels however definitely want to be in units of 3. It maximises holophoton countermeasures and with Fire Team makes them Bs5 as standard. Stim injectors are not even close to worth it on them. Go EWO on all a VT on one and Target Locks on the other 2.

Currently your list has basically no ignores cover (only from SMS) next to no AA and interceptor and is reliant on Bs3. The changes suggested change literally all of that.

I don't think the fusion on stealth suits is worth it. Most tanks only have 10 rear armour which this formations hits and since you don't have any marker lights you'll do much better glancing it to death instead of taking it out with one shot. Besides if you run into something really tough you have that squad of fusion suits to handle it.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I have some questions and proposed changes, here we go:

FlingitNow wrote:Where's your EWOs? Right from the top:

Commander isn't really worth it as a pure shooty unit. You get far more firepower from his points worth of Crisis. I'd go buffmander.

Riptide wants EWO always, stims is less useful. He's little more than a bullet magnet without help from a batman suit his damage output is poor.

I'd have a big unit of Crisis suits somewhere for buffmander usage. At least 7 preferably 8-9 and some Bs10 gundrones. That should be your main agressive unit allowing the other 2 to have a more defensive roll for solo suits is my advice.

Broadsides want EWO as well, perhaps give 1 a target lock instead though that is of less use now they don't have tank hunter as standard.

Keep the stealthsuits at 3s. Only buying more if you have spare points. The Ghostkeels however definitely want to be in units of 3. It maximises holophoton countermeasures and with Fire Team makes them Bs5 as standard. Stim injectors are not even close to worth it on them. Go EWO on all a VT on one and Target Locks on the other 2.

Currently your list has basically no ignores cover (only from SMS) next to no AA and interceptor and is reliant on Bs3. The changes suggested change literally all of that.

Ok, thinking Buffmander with C'nC node, MSSS, DC, Puretide Chip, Iridium suit and Shield generator, with 2 marker drones. Thinking I could run him with the Broadsides.

Why so keen on interceptor, may I ask? In my experience fliers are relatively uncommon and those I do come across I am almost always happy to ignore. that seems like quite a big investment of points to me for something that isn't a huge threat. To my mind sticking stims on the Riptide to help it soak up the damage seems better.

I see your point on the Stealth suits. I mostly filled them out as I don't want them to be an easy target for first blood/strike and remove the OSC effectiveness (which is another source of ignores cover in the list with the Wall of mirrors rule). That said, I can see the value in running min units and getting a 3rd Ghostkeel and maybe a couple of extra Crisis.

thefallenjackal wrote:I don't think the fusion on stealth suits is worth it. Most tanks only have 10 rear armour which this formations hits and since you don't have any marker lights you'll do much better glancing it to death instead of taking it out with one shot. Besides if you run into something really tough you have that squad of fusion suits to handle it.

I had the points to spare, so it seemed liked a good extra pip of versatility. Only 10 pts after all. Just realised I should be putting homing beacons on these teams (no idea how I missed that on my first pass tbh) so I'll probably swap them out for those.

If you cut the Fusion Blasters on the Stealth Suits you'll have enough for another Crisis Suit with two weapons, which would be nice.

Also, I'm not a fan of the Burst Cannons on the Crisis Suits when you already have so many Burst Cannons in your units. I think swapping them on the Crisis Suits for Missile Pods could be a lot better since it'll give you some strong range, with much higher strength, and your shooting capability would be about the same as you'd get more shots early in the game because of the longer range.

Ok, thinking Buffmander with C'nC node, MSSS, DC, Puretide Chip, Iridium suit and Shield generator, with 2 marker drones. Thinking I could run him with the Broadsides. 

Why so keen on interceptor, may I ask? In my experience fliers are relatively uncommon and those I do come across I am almost always happy to ignore. that seems like quite a big investment of points to me for something that isn't a huge threat. To my mind sticking stims on the Riptide to help it soak up the damage seems better. 

I see your point on the Stealth suits. I mostly filled them out as I don't want them to be an easy target for first blood/strike and remove the OSC effectiveness (which is another source of ignores cover in the list with the Wall of mirrors rule). That said, I can see the value in running min units and getting a 3rd Ghostkeel and maybe a couple of extra Crisis. 

The Broadsides are already twinlinked and half their shots ignore cover and the top out at units of 3. A big Crisis team is a much better use of the Buffmander. Marker Drones aren't a great fit as anything his unit shoots at should be dead so the markers are wasted.

Interceptor isn't just or even primarily for flyers. It's for Skyhammers and drop pod assaults etc.

Wall of mirrors doesn't require the stealthsuits to work and you can hide smaller units easier to help mitigate FB. The Ghostkeels are the strength of the Formation.

That makes sense. I'll go and have a play with the list and put up a revamped version soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right here is an updated list and a quick run down of the changes.

Retaliation Cadre: Put in a modified buffmander build (no marker drones or controller) to run with the plasma suits, which are now running at 4 members rather than 3. Added EWO and VT to Riptide, removing stimms and added EWOs on the Broadsides.

OSC: EWO and VT on one Ghostkeel, while the others are EWOs and TLs. no stimm injectors. Dropped the Stealth teams to minimum members and removed fusion, but added shas'vres with the homing beacons to make sure the Retaliation Cadre hit the deck exactly where planned with no mishaps.

Retaliation Cadre:

Commander - C'nC node, MSSS, Iridium armour, shield generator, Puretide engram neurochip - 185

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, T/L SMS, EWO and VT - 210

4 Crisis Suits - T/L Plasma Rifles, Plasma Rifles - 228

3 Crisis Suits - T/L Fusion Blasters, Fusion Blasters - 171

3 Crisis Suits - T/L Burst Cannons, Burst Cannons - 141

3 Broadside Suits - T/L High-Yield Missile Pods, T/L SMS, EWOs - 210


Optimised Stealth Cadre:

3 Stealth Suits - 3x Burst Cannon, Shas'vre with Homing Beacon - 110

3 Stealth Suits - 3x Burst Cannon, Shas'vre with Homing Beacon - 110

3 Ghostkeels - Cyclic Ion Rakers, T/L Fusion Blasters, 3x EWOs, 2x TL, 1x VT - 465


Current Total: 1830

Still got 20 points to spend. Not enough for another Crisis or Stealth suit sadly. Anything you would recommend taking?

Actually, is it worth keeping the DC and Marker drone on the Buffmander to allow for stripping cover from the unit being shot at?

Just realised the list got auto addended

Why all the twinlinked weapons when you'll be twin linked all the time anyway?

VT is a waste of points on a Riptide. Why on earth woukd you put one on him?

You are still missing target locks which will cripple your buffmander and again the Crisis team is too small. The burstcannon team really isn't worth it. Something like this massively ups your damage out put:

RETALIATION CADRE

Commander - C'nC node, MSSS, Iridium armour, shield generator, Puretide engram neurochip, VRT, NWSJ, DC - 200

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, T/L SMS, EWO - 190

9 Crisis Suits - 6 x 2 Plasmas,  3 x 2 Fusion, 9 target locks, 12 Gun Drones- 657

Crisis Suit - T/L Missile pod, Missile pod - 57

Crisis Suit - T/L Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster - 57

3 Broadside Suits - T/L High-Yield Missile Pods, T/L SMS, EWOs - 210 

OPTIMISED STEALTH CADRE

3 Stealth Suits - 3x Burst Cannon, Shas'vre with Homing Beacon - 110 

3 Stealth Suits - 3x Burst Cannon, Shas'vre with Homing Beacon - 110 

3 Ghostkeels - Cyclic Ion Rakers, T/L Fusion Blasters, 3x EWOs, 2x TL, 1x VT - 465 

Now your Crisis are providing 24 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma shots, 6 twinlinked ignoring cover Fusion, plus 2 more fusion shots, 4 Missile pod shots and 24 Bs10 ignoring cover S5 shots. Compared to 16 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma at 1 target, 6 fusion and 24 Bs3 S5 shots...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why all the twinlinked weapons when you'll be twin linked all the time anyway?

Oops, rules reading fail. Yeah the plasma suits could lose the T/L weapons.

VT is a waste of points on a Riptide. Why on earth woukd you put one on him?

Because the EWO seems pointless without it. What's the point in giving it interceptor if he is only likely to score 1 or 2 S5 hits and maybe a S:7 hit if you are lucky? That's nowhere near enough to be able to kill or even particularly likely to damage anything. At least with the VT he has a chance of scoring more hits and glancing something to death. Otherwise the EWO is just wasted points too.

You are still missing target locks which will cripple your buffmander and again the Crisis team is too small. The burstcannon team really isn't worth it. Something like this massively ups your damage out put:

Going to have to agree to disagree with you on this. I've always found burst cannons useful, and I prefer the swiss army knife approach of having several small units equipped to deal with different threats. At most I might drop a fusion suit for an extra plasma, but not convinced.

RETALIATION CADRE

Commander - C'nC node, MSSS, Iridium armour, shield generator, Puretide engram neurochip, VRT, NWSJ, DC - 200

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, T/L SMS, EWO - 190

9 Crisis Suits - 6 x 2 Plasmas,  3 x 2 Fusion, 9 target locks, 12 Gun Drones- 657

Crisis Suit - T/L Missile pod, Missile pod - 57

Crisis Suit - T/L Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster - 57

3 Broadside Suits - T/L High-Yield Missile Pods, T/L SMS, EWOs - 210 
....

Now your Crisis are providing 24 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma shots, 6 twinlinked ignoring cover Fusion, plus 2 more fusion shots, 4 Missile pod shots and 24 Bs10 ignoring cover S5 shots. Compared to 16 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma at 1 target, 6 fusion and 24 Bs3 S5 shots...

Drones don't seem worth it at all. They lower the average toughness of the unit making them easier to hurt. Sure its a lot of shots, but I'd rather spend the points on more Crisis or burst cannon stealth suits

 Castiel wrote:

VT is a waste of points on a Riptide. Why on earth woukd you put one on him?

Because the EWO seems pointless without it. What's the point in giving it interceptor if he is only likely to score 1 or 2 S5 hits and maybe a S:7 hit if you are lucky? That's nowhere near enough to be able to kill or even particularly likely to damage anything. At least with the VT he has a chance of scoring more hits and glancing something to death. Otherwise the EWO is just wasted points too.

You are still missing target locks which will cripple your buffmander and again the Crisis team is too small. The burstcannon team really isn't worth it. Something like this massively ups your damage out put:

Going to have to agree to disagree with you on this. I've always found burst cannons useful, and I prefer the swiss army knife approach of having several small units equipped to deal with different threats. At most I might drop a fusion suit for an extra plasma, but not convinced.

RETALIATION CADRE

Commander - C'nC node, MSSS, Iridium armour, shield generator, Puretide engram neurochip, VRT, NWSJ, DC - 200

Riptide - Ion Accelerator, T/L SMS, EWO - 190

9 Crisis Suits - 6 x 2 Plasmas,  3 x 2 Fusion, 9 target locks, 12 Gun Drones- 657

Crisis Suit - T/L Missile pod, Missile pod - 57

Crisis Suit - T/L Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster - 57

3 Broadside Suits - T/L High-Yield Missile Pods, T/L SMS, EWOs - 210 
....

Now your Crisis are providing 24 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma shots, 6 twinlinked ignoring cover Fusion, plus 2 more fusion shots, 4 Missile pod shots and 24 Bs10 ignoring cover S5 shots. Compared to 16 twinlinked ignoring cover plasma at 1 target, 6 fusion and 24 Bs3 S5 shots...

Drones don't seem worth it at all. They lower the average toughness of the unit making them easier to hurt. Sure its a lot of shots, but I'd rather spend the points on more Crisis or burst cannon stealth suits

The EWO is not for shooting at flyers. Its for dropping a S8 AP2 large blast on some unlucky drop pod squad or an outflanking bike squad. Interceptor hurts all reserves not just flyers and even with skyfire the riptide does not do enough to make it worth the points.

The 12 drones that fling added have the same amount of S5 shots as your 3 man crisis team. Also drones are T4 so no loss of durability and the target locks allow you to engage multiple targets and make better use of the buffmander

 FirePainter wrote:

The EWO is not for shooting at flyers. Its for dropping a S8 AP2 large blast on some unlucky drop pod squad or an outflanking bike squad. Interceptor hurts all reserves not just flyers and even with skyfire the riptide does not do enough to make it worth the points.

The 12 drones that fling added have the same amount of S5 shots as your 3 man crisis team. Also drones are T4 so no loss of durability and the target locks allow you to engage multiple targets and make better use of the buffmander

Ahh, that makes more sense now. Didn't realise they'd changed interceptor. I've spent too long buried in the HH and not playing mainstream 40k.

For some reason I had it in mind that suits were S5. That does make sense then. Just not a fan of 1 man units. Seems like too many easy kill points sitting around.

 Castiel wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

The EWO is not for shooting at flyers. Its for dropping a S8 AP2 large blast on some unlucky drop pod squad or an outflanking bike squad. Interceptor hurts all reserves not just flyers and even with skyfire the riptide does not do enough to make it worth the points.

The 12 drones that fling added have the same amount of S5 shots as your 3 man crisis team. Also drones are T4 so no loss of durability and the target locks allow you to engage multiple targets and make better use of the buffmander

Ahh, that makes more sense now. Didn't realise they'd changed interceptor. I've spent too long buried in the HH and not playing mainstream 40k.

For some reason I had it in mind that suits were S5. That does make sense then. Just not a fan of 1 man units. Seems like too many easy kill points sitting around.

Yeah you can use interceptor against anyone that comes in from reserves.

Single suits are good for suicide drops or maelstrom grabbing. Yeah they die easy but they are cheap points for good versitility add to that they are easy to hide if need be with jsj.

 FirePainter wrote:

Yeah you can use interceptor against anyone that comes in from reserves.

Single suits are good for suicide drops or maelstrom grabbing. Yeah they die easy but they are cheap points for good versitility add to that they are easy to hide if need be with jsj.

The more you know!

Yeah I can see that, I'll probably swing round to the idea, I just like my 3 man crisis squads. Still, I do want to play more competitively, so need to take the fluff head off and think tactically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hang on, hold the phone. Flingitnow your list weighs in at 2056 points, way over the 1850 pts I have to play with. Even without the drones and VRT on the commander it is still 57 points over budget.

As mentioned the drones are T4 so no damage to the Crisis survivability. Plus you can put them near your opponent's S8+ firepower to help against ID. Finally they provide an average 23.33 hits vs your burstcannon suits average of 15 a 56% increase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
As mentioned the drones are T4 so no damage to the Crisis survivability. Plus you can put them near your opponent's S8+ firepower to help against ID. Finally they provide an average 23.33 hits vs your burstcannon suits average of 15 a 56% increase.

You're 206 points over budget.

Because like an idiot I didn't include the broadsides

Drop 3 crisis and 3 drones you still get more firepower.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because like an idiot I didn't include the broadsides

Drop 3 crisis and 3 drones you still get more firepower.

Haha, fair enough. I was impressed by how many things you packed in until I started totalling it up

What's the benefit of the VRT on the commander btw? If he's in a unit surely he can't hit and run away without them?

Hit and run confers to the unit and you put it on the commander because he has the highest I.

Ahh, very handy then