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Let's say the Great Crusade is completed without incident and the Heresy never happens because the Emperor exhibits good parenting skills and Kor Phaeron and Erebus both die during the civil war on Colchis.

The Emperor then divides the Imperium into 18 "provinces", each governed by a primarch who answers only to him. The Sol system is its own special administrative district and lies outside all provinces. The Golden Throne is moved to Prospero for Magnus to maintain. The Emperor himself travels to Prospero to ordain Magnus as the Light of the Imperium. Because the Webway Project has run into some unforeseen difficulties, it is still far from complete. On his return trip to Terra, the Emperor and his ship vanish in the Warp (unknown to the Imperium, he will return after 10,000 years in realspace).

What happens over these 10,000 years? Can the primarchs get along? If the Imperium fractures, what lines are drawn?

I strongly doubt Angron and Curze would do very well.

To live in their realms would likely be unpleasant

Wow, this would actually make for a really interesting setting. 10k years is a long time so the realms would probably form alliances and fight in occasional civil wars, or split into ideological camps. Or maybe they would choose someone to rule in the Emperor's absence (or to be a neutral arbitrator; Magnus would be suitable for this role as he already sits on the Golden Throne), which could lead to something like the Roman Empire splitting into East and West.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I strongly doubt Angron and Curze would do very well.

No, but they could patrol the Imperium's borders and direct their anger outwards against remaining foes that pop up from time to time (doubt Orks could be exterminated). Primarchs like Sanguinius, Guilliman, and Jonson would probably rule efficient and prosperous realms.

I think a good chunk of the primarchs get along well to enough to maintain overall order, at least for a time. Primarchs like Guilliman, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc would form some kind of council. However, with the Emperor out of the way I think a lot of the troubled primarchs would likely end up going down the same pathways they did during the heresy. There would undoubtedly be civil wars, but perhaps not on the scale of 9 vs 9.

Side note, I don't think the Emperor ever intended for Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but that's a different issue.

There would be a whole lot of fighting between the provinces.
Most of the loyalist Primarchs only agreed to work together BECAUSE the Emperor died.

Dorn and Guilliman might get along, or at least have trade agreements, but Dorn would be untrusting.
Guilliman did prove that his main focus would always be on his own Imperium before others.
Purtabo might actually be happy for once in his life, since he finally gets to build and make peace..
Of course everybody loves Sanguinius and Horus.

The real question is who would be in open war?

Most likely Curze and Lion'el.
Angron and Everyone. (mostly SW)

How removed is this alternative version from the Heresy as it stands?Does Fulgrim still pick up the Laeran blade, does Typhon still cause the Death Guard fleet to become marooned in the warp, had Magnus listened to the Emperors decree at Nikaea etc?

If the Dark Gods still have their claws in the Primarchs then I think that certain things would play out the same, but not on such a scale.

The loyalist primarchs go on to forge stable empires that follow the Imperial Truth and ideals that he Emperor laid out for his subjects.

If Fulgrim hadn't had picked up the Laeran blade then it is quite likely that, as with Chemos, his Empire is one of the most efficient and admired. Perhaps causing jealousy amongst some brothers.

What of Horus though. He was content before he was appointed Warmaster to be on the same level as his brothers, but, he was closer to his father. Would he begrudge the Emperor leaving him for a second time, even as the head of his own Empire. Should he not be leading in place of the Emperor rather than share the reward with his brothers.

How would Lorgar react after Monarchia, without Erebus or Kor Phaeron would he have recovered or would the Emperor have had to make an example of him.

Would the Khan accept an empire, I think he is content to be the outsider.

Mortarion believes that he deserves his own Empire, but what he does with it would be interesting. Would he follow the Emperor or lead it as he felt fit. He hates playing servant to another, so maybe he would sever ties with the Imperium.

I am not sure if the Emperor could allow Curze or Angron to rule.

What sort of enemies are there to fight? If the Crusade is completed then most of the Xenos would be dead, if not all. There would be problems with the Astartes not having anything to do anymore and I couldn't imagine that would sit well with Angron and his World Eaters. Perhaps Angron would be banished, he wants to be free as well.

If you stuck to what Curze laws were, then you wouldn't have much of a problem. You wouldn't have much of anything, but at least you wouldn't have your spine removed through your bottom. I think Curze's Empire would get into conflict with his brothers as they would likely fall out over this methods.

It's pretty obvious who would rule in the Emperor's stead while he's gone:

Malcador the Sigilite or Horus. In either case, they would have groups like the Fists and the Space Wolves, possibly even the World-Eaters, to ensure basic civility between the provinces.

I don't think the the primarchs would bow to Malcador or even Horus.

That said, Horus would have a better chance of holding the IoM together. He would have Sanguinius' support and maybe even Guilliman's

We have to assume the Emperor read books about how to be a good dad... If that's the case then we just made grimdark into noble bright

My best bet, would be that some serious in-fighting would occur.

It is stated that the primarchs felt betrayed, by Malcador standing by the side of Big E, instead of them as his counselor. Then if Malcador proceeded to actually lead the IoM, my bet, would be, that the primarchs (or a bunch of them), would stage a coup d'état, not as heretics, but as rebels, feeling their birthright taken away from them.

Then, the problem would come with who'd be the next leader. Sure, many of the primarchs wouldn't woe for the throne, but plenty of them would, some with support from the rest.
I'd probally look something like the fantasy setting, around the year of 2000, with the war of the 3 emperors (and Curze taking the stage as Vlad Von Carstein).

Also, even if everything went dandy, Horus became Lil E, and Malcador rocked the golden throne, Chaos would still exist. It has always existed, the imperium was just good at covering it up, and sooner or later, some Astartes, would probally turn renegade.
Also, there are plenty of enemies the IoM would need to fight, so the Astartes will still have plenty to do. (say, the necrons, tyranids, various small xeno races and our loving sponges; Orks )

Can the Golden Throne even be moved? It's built around a webway portal. I'm pretty sure those are pretty stuck where they're constructed. Unless by Golden Throne you're talking about the Astronomicon? If that's the case then the Imperium is ruled by Magnus, and the Thousand Sons homeworld becomes the new center of the Imperium. The influence of holding the key to interstellar travel cannot be underestimated and I think in this scenario Magnus has without a doubt final say in anything major going on in the Imperium and while their may be some puppet Primarchs that present themselves as the greatest among equals, Magnus owns the day.

Angron will eventually die, this is presented as a straightforward fact in the HH novels. It's only his asension to demonhood that keeps the Nails from killing him. So after Angron dies the World Eaters eventually turn from the ritual of the Nails. Leaderless and without a primarch they fade off into the peremiter of SM society. They are the lost ones, the ones you feel sorry for. They're bitter because of it but become more focused, and a stronger force because of it.

Curze is still a psycopath and no doubt he still eventually goes nuts and planetwide genocides can only be tolerated so much in a era of peace. He'll be sanctioned, and then what happened at Prospero will instead happen to the Night Lords.

In this circumstance, I don't think each Primarch would be given territory to manage. I think some of them wouldn't be entrusted like that, particularly Angron.

Some of them would be in-charge, others would just be more proactive. Even in this situation, the galaxy is still full of hostile alien empires which would need to be fought. The more aggressive combat orientated legions and their primarchs would be directed to this, the others would become garrison and administration forces.

Anyway, I think if this happened we would still have a Heresy, just less significant. Horus would probably remain loyal, as would Magnus. Lorgar is iffy, if the Emperor disappeared his founding of the Imperial Cult might gain some traction and the Word Bearers might remain loyal too. The other traitors might end up falling to chaos the way they did, just in a more piecemeal fashion. Or if the Primarchs didn't fall, I think some marines would. So you'd have renegade marines from every legion becoming chaos marines, while the original legions as a whole remain loyal.

Malcador was very good friends to a few of the Primarchs, especially Dorn. Don't forget, he had a hand in their creation, I've always seen him as a grandfather type figure to the Primarchs, obviously a few don't like him much (Lorgar after Monarchia(but would that even happen in this scenario), Angron because he is Angron.) But I assume he would have a seat on some hypothetical council of Primarchs, though he could be the source of a rift.

So, without Erebus to feth things up, the Imperium would collaborate with the Interex Empire and flow with OP technology ?

Neat.

 LethalShade wrote:
So, without Erebus to feth things up, the Imperium would collaborate with the Interex Empire and flow with OP technology ?

Neat.

No. The Interex still get conquered and largely exterminated for their fraternization with Xenos.

They were negotiating with the Imperium.

Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Malcador was very good friends to a few of the Primarchs, especially Dorn. Don't forget, he had a hand in their creation, I've always seen him as a grandfather type figure to the Primarchs, obviously a few don't like him much (Lorgar after Monarchia(but would that even happen in this scenario), Angron because he is Angron.) But I assume he would have a seat on some hypothetical council of Primarchs, though he could be the source of a rift.

More like that creepy old uncle mum would have warned them about... if they'd had a mum.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

Actually, many of the novels in the HH show that the Imperium was willing to cooperate with Xenos in the first century or so of the Great Crusae (though the Big E made sure to exterminate any that might bite him in the ass later on), but they ended up destroying all of them and finally gave up on diplomacy.

Examples:
In Fulgrim, the Adeptus Terra wanted to make the Laer a protectorate race of the IoM (due to the fact that it would cost a fuckton of lives to conquer them).
In Horus Rising, Horus and the Adeptus Terra are very willing to integrate the Kinebranch into the IoM alongside the humans of the Interex (due to both the potential loss of lives from an extermination war and the fact that the Interex were really friendly to the Imperium).

 b1soul wrote:
I don't think the the primarchs would bow to Malcador or even Horus.

That said, Horus would have a better chance of holding the IoM together. He would have Sanguinius' support and maybe even Guilliman's

Horus was a Primarch, and was their leader, second only to the Emperor, during the Great Crusade. They canonically bowed to him in the history of 40k, why would they not in this hypothetical scenario?

Malcador was the Metatron, "the Voice of God". He spoke with the Emperor's authority. He already, again in the "canonical" history of 40k, had authority over the Primarchs and stood in the Emperor's place in the running of the Imperium.

 Psienesis wrote:

 b1soul wrote:
I don't think the the primarchs would bow to Malcador or even Horus.

That said, Horus would have a better chance of holding the IoM together. He would have Sanguinius' support and maybe even Guilliman's

Horus was a Primarch, and was their leader, second only to the Emperor, during the Great Crusade. They canonically bowed to him in the history of 40k, why would they not in this hypothetical scenario?

Malcador was the Metatron, "the Voice of God". He spoke with the Emperor's authority. He already, again in the "canonical" history of 40k, had authority over the Primarchs and stood in the Emperor's place in the running of the Imperium.

A lot of the Primarchs (Horus included) resented Malcador, a "mere mortal", for having authority over them (though Malcador is the most powerful human Psyker in the Milky Way and is probably a Perpetual).
The vast majority of Primarchs (outside of Lorgar, Sanguinius, Vulkan, and... yeah, I think that's it) resented Horus for being made Warmaster. Of course, he did a fantastic job, so he kinda just proved his right through excellence. Then he tore the entire Imperium to pieces, but that's beside the point. I can think of at least two Primarchs off-hand that wouldn't bow to Horus if he were made Emperor (Lion, Angron, and Curze).

 dusara217 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

Actually, many of the novels in the HH show that the Imperium was willing to cooperate with Xenos in the first century or so of the Great Crusae (though the Big E made sure to exterminate any that might bite him in the ass later on), but they ended up destroying all of them and finally gave up on diplomacy.

Examples:
In Fulgrim, the Adeptus Terra wanted to make the Laer a protectorate race of the IoM (due to the fact that it would cost a fuckton of lives to conquer them).
In Horus Rising, Horus and the Adeptus Terra are very willing to integrate the Kinebranch into the IoM alongside the humans of the Interex (due to both the potential loss of lives from an extermination war and the fact that the Interex were really friendly to the Imperium).

Yeah, and those Xenos were ultimately destined for grimdark concentration camps. The Emperor of course was patient and could implement such a plan slowly and "boil the frog" without them noticing.

They were never going or intended to be permanently cooperated with.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

Actually, many of the novels in the HH show that the Imperium was willing to cooperate with Xenos in the first century or so of the Great Crusae (though the Big E made sure to exterminate any that might bite him in the ass later on), but they ended up destroying all of them and finally gave up on diplomacy.

Examples:
In Fulgrim, the Adeptus Terra wanted to make the Laer a protectorate race of the IoM (due to the fact that it would cost a fuckton of lives to conquer them).
In Horus Rising, Horus and the Adeptus Terra are very willing to integrate the Kinebranch into the IoM alongside the humans of the Interex (due to both the potential loss of lives from an extermination war and the fact that the Interex were really friendly to the Imperium).

Yeah, and those Xenos were ultimately destined for grimdark concentration camps. The Emperor of course was patient and could implement such a plan slowly and "boil the frog" without them noticing.

They were never going or intended to be permanently cooperated with.

I don't think that you understand. A "protectorate" is a form of vassal state. It is completely independent of its liegelord (in this case, the IoM), but it is forced to pay tithes in some manner (be it an oath of fealty, paying taxes, providing auxiliaries to the military, etc.). The parent state usually barely interferes at all (case in point: the Roman Republic. It set up a variety of vassal states prior to Augustus Caesar taking control, and levied taxes and troops from each of them while interfering minimally in local politics).

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

Actually, many of the novels in the HH show that the Imperium was willing to cooperate with Xenos in the first century or so of the Great Crusae (though the Big E made sure to exterminate any that might bite him in the ass later on), but they ended up destroying all of them and finally gave up on diplomacy.

Examples:
In Fulgrim, the Adeptus Terra wanted to make the Laer a protectorate race of the IoM (due to the fact that it would cost a fuckton of lives to conquer them).
In Horus Rising, Horus and the Adeptus Terra are very willing to integrate the Kinebranch into the IoM alongside the humans of the Interex (due to both the potential loss of lives from an extermination war and the fact that the Interex were really friendly to the Imperium).

Yeah, and those Xenos were ultimately destined for grimdark concentration camps. The Emperor of course was patient and could implement such a plan slowly and "boil the frog" without them noticing.

They were never going or intended to be permanently cooperated with.

I don't think that you understand. A "protectorate" is a form of vassal state. It is completely independent of its liegelord (in this case, the IoM), but it is forced to pay tithes in some manner (be it an oath of fealty, paying taxes, providing auxiliaries to the military, etc.). The parent state usually barely interferes at all (case in point: the Roman Republic. It set up a variety of vassal states prior to Augustus Caesar taking control, and levied taxes and troops from each of them while interfering minimally in local politics).

You're assuming that the GW writers were concerned about the meaning of Protectorate and were using it correctly.

Its 100% clear that the Emperor's long term goal was the eradication of all Xenos. It might have taken a few thousand years, but it was going to happen.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, and those negotiations weren't going to end in any other way. The only question was weather they willingly submitted and had their alien impurities scoured peacefully or if they were scoured with bolter and chainsword.

Actually, many of the novels in the HH show that the Imperium was willing to cooperate with Xenos in the first century or so of the Great Crusae (though the Big E made sure to exterminate any that might bite him in the ass later on), but they ended up destroying all of them and finally gave up on diplomacy.

Examples:
In Fulgrim, the Adeptus Terra wanted to make the Laer a protectorate race of the IoM (due to the fact that it would cost a fuckton of lives to conquer them).
In Horus Rising, Horus and the Adeptus Terra are very willing to integrate the Kinebranch into the IoM alongside the humans of the Interex (due to both the potential loss of lives from an extermination war and the fact that the Interex were really friendly to the Imperium).

Yeah, and those Xenos were ultimately destined for grimdark concentration camps. The Emperor of course was patient and could implement such a plan slowly and "boil the frog" without them noticing.

They were never going or intended to be permanently cooperated with.

I don't think that you understand. A "protectorate" is a form of vassal state. It is completely independent of its liegelord (in this case, the IoM), but it is forced to pay tithes in some manner (be it an oath of fealty, paying taxes, providing auxiliaries to the military, etc.). The parent state usually barely interferes at all (case in point: the Roman Republic. It set up a variety of vassal states prior to Augustus Caesar taking control, and levied taxes and troops from each of them while interfering minimally in local politics).

You're assuming that the GW writers were concerned about the meaning of Protectorate and were using it correctly.

Its 100% clear that the Emperor's long term goal was the eradication of all Xenos. It might have taken a few thousand years, but it was going to happen.

And yet he allowed Humanity to engage in diplomacy for 10k+ years

As I said, he's infinitely patient.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As I said, he's infinitely patient.

And now he's infinitely a patient.

Zing!