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So I've been working on the Dkok platoon I ordered and I've been throwing around ideas about things to add to the army. I read somewhere that Dkok doesn't have access to the flyers that imperial guard do. Obviously the army list is out dated since its a forgeworld list. If a Dkok player brought the flyers in the same way/price normal guard do would you have a problem playing against them? I know it's not a fluffy idea but my friends play a lot of neuron and tau so I'll need to find cheese here and there to keep the army from getting tabled.

They do not have any flyers in their army list. Whether you can change the rules and bring some is between you and your fellow players.

 Peregrine wrote:
They do not have any flyers in their army list. Whether you can change the rules and bring some is between you and your fellow players.

Everyone can use the CAD.

FW flyers aren't in the normal IG codex, but they can still use them. If that is the case, DKOK should be able to use them.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
They do not have any flyers in their army list. Whether you can change the rules and bring some is between you and your fellow players.

Everyone can use the CAD.

FW flyers aren't in the normal IG codex, but they can still use them. If that is the case, DKOK should be able to use them.

The DKoK lists aren't just a bolt-on to the Imperial Guard codex, it's effectively "Codex: Death Korps SIege Regiment" and "Codex: Death Korps Assault Brigade". Much like Space Wolves don't have Stalker tanks that vanilla SM's have, the DKoK don't have air assets like most normal IG codex armies might.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
They do not have any flyers in their army list. Whether you can change the rules and bring some is between you and your fellow players.

Everyone can use the CAD.

FW flyers aren't in the normal IG codex, but they can still use them. If that is the case, DKOK should be able to use them.

The DKoK lists aren't just a bolt-on to the Imperial Guard codex, it's effectively "Codex: Death Korps SIege Regiment" and "Codex: Death Korps Assault Brigade". Much like Space Wolves don't have Stalker tanks that vanilla SM's have, the DKoK don't have air assets like most normal IG codex armies might.

Codex : AM lacks the unit profile for forge world flyers. Despite this, Codex : AM can use forge world flyers. Similarly Codex Sisters of Battle lacks any kind of flying unit, but can still use forge world flyers.

If I am understanding the argument correctly, the DKOK is a separate "codex" from all others, and #2 that the "codex" lacks any flying models, and that due to these conditions, flying models from outside the codex cannot be included in a CAD detachment. If that is the case, then how can Sisters of Battle use fw flyers at all? The forge world flyers can be brought into an army list and would fill in their respective slots just like other units.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

If I am understanding the argument correctly, the DKOK is a separate "codex" from all others, and #2 that the "codex" lacks any flying models, and that due to these conditions, flying models from outside the codex cannot be included in a CAD detachment. If that is the case, then how can Sisters of Battle use fw flyers at all?

Because it explicitly says in the IA books that those specific factions / armies (IG, SoB, SM) can field those units under what circumstances and in what slot.

DKoK is not one of the armies listed. Ergo the DKoK cannot field those fliers in a Combined Arms detachment.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Codex : AM lacks the unit profile for forge world flyers. Despite this, Codex : AM can use forge world flyers.

Yes, because the rules for the Thunderbolt specifically say "may be taken as a heavy support choice in a Codex: IG army". DKoK are NOT an IG army, so this rule does not apply.

If that is the case, then how can Sisters of Battle use fw flyers at all?

Because one specific unit (the Avenger) states that it may be taken by SoB as well as IG. SoB do not have blanket permission to use FW flyers.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

If I am understanding the argument correctly, the DKOK is a separate "codex" from all others, and #2 that the "codex" lacks any flying models, and that due to these conditions, flying models from outside the codex cannot be included in a CAD detachment. If that is the case, then how can Sisters of Battle use fw flyers at all?

Because it explicitly says in the IA books that those specific factions / armies (IG, SoB, SM) can field those units under what circumstances and in what slot.

DKoK is not one of the armies listed. Ergo the DKoK cannot field those fliers in a Combined Arms detachment.

Take IA IV Amphilion project below d-99 wargear it says "any wargear not found here, can be found in Codex: Astra Militarum, or the warhammer 40k rulebook" would that not imply that the d-99 are indeed under the same category as the imperial guard?

Furthermore, I am looking at an Imperial Armor Aeronautica page right now (and it says "A vulture gunship is a fast attack for a codex: Imperial Guard army). If you want to argue specifics, there is no codex: Imperial Guard.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Take IA IV Amphilion project below d-99 wargear it says "any wargear not found here, can be found in Codex: Astra Militarum, or the warhammer 40k rulebook" would that not imply that the d-99 are indeed under the same category as the imperial guard?

No. It just means "instead of copy/pasting the entire rules here we're just going to quote another source". I mean, by your argument the D-99 army would be part of the Warhammer 40k Rulebook faction as well as the IG faction, and that's obviously absurd.

Furthermore, I am looking at an Imperial Armor Aeronautica page right now (and it says "A vulture gunship is a fast attack for a codex: Imperial Guard army). If you want to argue specifics, there is no codex: Imperial Guard.

This is irrelevant. It might never be explicitly stated but it is universally-agreed-on precedent that when a new codex is published all references to the old one are assumed to point to the new one even if the name is slightly different. The Vulture's reference to C:IG is applied to C:AM, the Tau tank commander character with Preferred Enemy: IG works against a C:AM army, etc.

With the DKoK army list it is not a case of a newer codex with a slightly different title replacing the previous version. They're a separate army list, just like C:SM and C:SW are different armies even though they're both loyalist space marines. The DKoK list even has a special rule explicitly stating that they are NOT part of the IG faction.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Take IA IV Amphilion project below d-99 wargear it says "any wargear not found here, can be found in Codex: Astra Militarum, or the warhammer 40k rulebook" would that not imply that the d-99 are indeed under the same category as the imperial guard?

No. It just means "instead of copy/pasting the entire rules here we're just going to quote another source". I mean, by your argument the D-99 army would be part of the Warhammer 40k Rulebook faction as well as the IG faction, and that's obviously absurd.

Furthermore, I am looking at an Imperial Armor Aeronautica page right now (and it says "A vulture gunship is a fast attack for a codex: Imperial Guard army). If you want to argue specifics, there is no codex: Imperial Guard.

This is irrelevant. It might never be explicitly stated but it is universally-agreed-on precedent that when a new codex is published all references to the old one are assumed to point to the new one even if the name is slightly different. The Vulture's reference to C:IG is applied to C:AM, the Tau tank commander character with Preferred Enemy: IG works against a C:AM army, etc.

With the DKoK army list it is not a case of a newer codex with a slightly different title replacing the previous version. They're a separate army list, just like C:SM and C:SW are different armies even though they're both loyalist space marines. The DKoK list even has a special rule explicitly stating that they are NOT part of the IG faction.

Rules as written I concede.

On a personal level I think it is stupid. The imperial navy could very well be assigned to a DKOK regiment. If I was playing against a DKOK army I would for sure let them bring in some FW flyers. The DKOK are after all just a bunch of IMPERIAL GUARD regiments from Kreig.

I'm reading the siege of brakes and the imperial navy gives them a fleet to transport them to the surface for the 12 year siege. So obviously there is some form of flyers in the fluff. My main goal is to fill out an incomplete army. They are in need of an update for sure. They really should be shown as part of imperial guard. They are basically fancy guardsmen.

I wouldn't take it so much as that DKoK armies don't see Imperial aircraft fighting with them, but rather that they don't really utilize direct combat air support the way many other IG armies might, aircraft would be a strategic rather than an operational or tactical asset. I do recall on Vraks there being Imperial attack craft, but, IIRC, these were strategic bombers and fighter craft engaging other fighters, nothing that would be air support that you'd really see on a 40k battlefield.

Uhm, the Siege Vanguard army does have access to the Thunderbolt, Lightning and Avenger, if not the other options - they're Heavy Supports for the army according to Fall of Orpheus.

Aeronautica lists the Avenger as a Heavy Support for Sisters, and the Aquila and Arvus as Fast Attacks for the Sisters.

It also lists the Vulture, Avenger, Lightning and Thunderbolt as Heavy Support choices for an Imperial Guard army.

However, in the Elysian list in the Taros Campaign se, it lists the Vulture as a Fast Attack choice for an Elysian army, Valkyries as a Dedicated Transport choice, and Avengers, Thunderbolts and Lightnings as Heavy Support choices for an Elysian army. Therefore the Elysians can't take Fast Attack Valkyries, or Heavy Support Vultures - because that's not where they fit in that army list, even though they're a subset of IG.

What is the cheapest method (in points) that an Avenger could be legally fielded with a DKoK Siege Regiment? I bought my plane when the 6th Ed. PDF was available, for which the flyers were an option, so when IA: Siege of Vraks removed my £85 hunk of resin I was damned unhappy.

 God In Action wrote:
What is the cheapest method (in points) that an Avenger could be legally fielded with a DKoK Siege Regiment? I bought my plane when the 6th Ed. PDF was available, for which the flyers were an option, so when IA: Siege of Vraks removed my £85 hunk of resin I was damned unhappy.

110 points, IIRC. Naked CCS + naked veteran squad as an allied detachment. Obviously it's going to be more like 2-300 if you want those squads to be effective. Alternatively, if you're taking LRBTs in your army already you can move them into an allied ABG detachment and get access to the Avenger for "free".

 Peregrine wrote:

 God In Action wrote:
What is the cheapest method (in points) that an Avenger could be legally fielded with a DKoK Siege Regiment? I bought my plane when the 6th Ed. PDF was available, for which the flyers were an option, so when IA: Siege of Vraks removed my £85 hunk of resin I was damned unhappy.

110 points, IIRC. Naked CCS + naked veteran squad as an allied detachment. Obviously it's going to be more like 2-300 if you want those squads to be effective. Alternatively, if you're taking LRBTs in your army already you can move them into an allied ABG detachment and get access to the Avenger for "free".

Thanks. Is IA: 1, 2nd Ed. updated for 7th edition?

If Scions can take Avengers, you can take a Comissar HQ and a 5 men squad with Meltas for 115pts, might serve you better than naked vets/CCS