The Extensive Armory Of The Emperor: How Will You Use the New Guard Formations?

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**the_scotsman**

Link to leaks (mods remove if this is a no-no): http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH

so the first decurion for a red-headed stepdex has dropped!

My biggest question is how priests commissars and the like fit into this scheme (if at all). Because if GW thinks I'm fielding 3 fifty man blobs with no priests they've got another thing coming.

My first impression is that HWTs as part of a blob, Wyrdvanes and Basilisks/Manticores got a much needed buff. The biggest issue with Russes remains, and GW still doesn't seem to know IG has elites that aren't Ogryn shaped but overall it's a nice buff to an ailing army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, a couple relevant updates:

1) GWs site is selling 2 infantry squads, a command squad box, a sentinel and 2 HWTs as "everything you need to field a Shield Infantry Platoon." Bit of a head scratcher, and it's been mentioned that it is possible that the Shield requiring one to have five INFANTRY squads, rather than a platoon containing 5 squads of any kind (pcs infantry HW etc).

2) RAW it would seem that any IG detachment can include 1 commissar for each CCS/PCS and 0-3 Priests/Primaris/Techpriests who don't take up slots. It would seem you do not need to go priest less with your 50 man blobs in a shield.

**Ir0njack**

Well if your worried about morale with the infantry blobs (thats why I run priest as hymns are rather unreliable) There is a new Cadian relic: The banner of the lost, which provides a 18' fearless bubble if I remember correctly, while also acting as a regular regimental standard.

The recon and artillery company are probably my two favorites with the ESIP following a close second if it turn out to by 5 infantry type units and not infantry squads. The artillery company I'm particularly fond of because now only do you get to give them orders (FINALLY) but its ANY vox caster, not "part of this detatchment" so I can run any combination the get those Voxes in range and just fire away! The recon is nice for me as I'll only ever run armored sentinels and with outflank and preferred enemy and orders they're gonna put the hurt on something before they go down, and that one less round of shooting at the rest of your forces. Lets hope they get a price cut come Feb. Just to touch on the Psykana Division, at first I was excited then I started to add up the points and for eight warp charges 435pts (thats just psykers no commissars) is meh. Granted that is 32 wound of psykers to chew through, but at T3 with a cardboard armor save and no telepathy shenanigans a la Conclave, Its just not worth it to me.

I sent a Email to GW customer service regarding the Emperor's shield web bundle but the reply I got back with "Mont'ka isn't released yet so once it is we can look at it and answer you" at first I was a little put off, but considering how tight lipped company policy probably requires them to be I shouldn't have been surprised. I just try again come Saturday.

**Ether**

It's no decurion :/

You can now take 3 Valkyrie or Vendetta squadrons with no tax. Skitarii just solved their transport problem and MT got much much nastier.

Wyrdvane buff is cool, but it's competing with the ubiquitous librarius conclave and I don't think it's better in terms of either points or rules. Still, nice and fluffy.

Orders to artillery is awesome; ignores cover basilisks solves a lot of (bike) problems.

BS 4 on the tanks is neat, vanquishers might start popping up again, and I really like the requirement for taking an engineseer from a fluff POV.

The blade assault division is cool, if a bit "meh," but as the only obsec in here it's going to be essential IMO.

I'm hoping there's more access to obsec units because there's only 1 option there as it stands, and when you're competing with pod/razorback spam, you really don't want to be caught out without it.

Is there another bonus like you get with the gladius where you take X choices and get a super-buff?

**locarno24**

The option of a battle-forged superheavy tank company is appealing - just take one tank with a transport capacity (probably stormlord) and put the mandatory enginseer in that.

**the_scotsman**

Ether wrote:
It's no decurion :/

You can now take 3 Valkyrie or Vendetta squadrons with no tax. Skitarii just solved their transport problem and MT got much much nastier.

Wyrdvane buff is cool, but it's competing with the ubiquitous librarius conclave and I don't think it's better in terms of either points or rules. Still, nice and fluffy.

Orders to artillery is awesome; ignores cover basilisks solves a lot of (bike) problems.

BS 4 on the tanks is neat, vanquishers might start popping up again, and I really like the requirement for taking an engineseer from a fluff POV.

The blade assault division is cool, if a bit "meh," but as the only obsec in here it's going to be essential IMO.

I'm hoping there's more access to obsec units because there's only 1 option there as it stands, and when you're competing with pod/razorback spam, you really don't want to be caught out without it.

Is there another bonus like you get with the gladius where you take X choices and get a super-buff?

Unknown as yet. Remember the codex is still forthcoming-everyone thought the decurion was "meh" when it leaked and we were still looking at the fifth ed Dex rules.

Honestly I think the biggest thing about the Wyrdvane formation is not just the reliability but the cost. Wyrdvanes are pretty cheap, and a VSG to keep them safe while they, for instance, summon daemons on 2+ rolls (57% chance of successful summon with just three dice) and ignore perils entirely.

I don't think under most circumstances I would run this as a detachment. The core is too heavy an investment, I would probably pair a CAD with some of the formations. I may consider if I owned 5 LR tanks running that as the core but even with the ability to attach and use 5 HWTs to each blob, 3 blobs is too inflexible.

If GW changes the Emps Shield to 5 squads of any kind I'm on board for sure, but as it currently stands RAW 3 Emp shields is too unwieldy to use.

**cod3x**

Certainly improves them as allies. No more 100+ pt tax to get to the relevant help (arty and tanks, specifically).

**Anti-Orc**

Sorry I have one question and one thing to say.

So the question is : Where did you guy find the emperors shield formation?

And what I want to say: So I'ma run the steel host with plasmcutioners using the preferred enemy to prevent them from killing themselves

**winterman**

the_scotsman wrote:

Unknown as yet. Remember the codex is still forthcoming-everyone thought the decurion was "meh" when it leaked and we were still looking at the fifth ed Dex rules.

I wouldn't hold my breath on a new dex any time soon.

Sad Panda wrote:Don't worry. I don't think there will be a new Guard Codex in 2016. Certainly not in the first half of the year.

Sad Panda is the most reliable rumor monger around right now. This is the IG update for the foreseeable future.

To me it is probably best to ignore the Cadian Battleforce and just use the formations on their own, maybe with a CAD. Several are pretty good. But the Cadian composite formation as a whole is simply not worth it. IG already struggle to get and hold objectives, swapping obsec for more accurate lasguns and a slight buff to orders? And extensive requirements like 175 infantry models or two tank commanders? Nah

**Ir0njack**

Ether wrote:
It's no decurion :/

You can now take 3 Valkyrie or Vendetta squadrons with no tax. Skitarii just solved their transport problem and MT got much much nastier.

Is there another bonus like you get with the gladius where you take X choices and get a super-buff?

Okay first off. OH MY SWEET EMPEROR YOU'RE RIGHT! Screw drop pods, this is the TRUE imperial taxi service. Vendetta Vanguard is definitely something I'm trying, or even Valks for max squad size is gross. Even tau can't put out enough shots to stop that.

With the battle group I think the "big bonus" is just the 24" order range and 3 order for company commanderS (you can have multiple!), for ANY orders 3d6 discard the highest (as a IG player that has issues getting orders to go off this is big for me) , and pseudo preferred enemy flashlights (meh).

I would have enjoyed free transport but honestly that would have been SUPER OP, I mean think about it. You can CCS and two 50 man infantry platoons under 750pts, if they all got free chimeras that would be 845pts of free transport.

**Ether**

The thing about the decurion is that it boosts something that the necrons are built aroud: being a pain to kill. I think guard are supposed to be good at cheap obsec and buckets of fire, both of which we are losing out on compared to marines these days.

For this mega formation we get HURT on the obsec front and buckets of las fire doesn't put points on the table when we're dealing with invisible double jinking hordes of ravenwing bikers (or conclaves in stormshield command bike squads).

For the free stuff, it could be something as simple as free heavy weapons upgrades on HWTs or infantry squads. Lots of shots. Like guard are supposed to have.

As stated, there are some buffs in there, and some good formations. I still think that the guard are playing an edition behind and am sad that this potential boost is as unremarkable as it is. Sorry to be a bummer, there are fun things up in there and some stuff that I'm definitely going to try out, but a lot of it is just more of the same overpriced slow vulnerable stuff I'm used to seeing from guard. I really like the emphasis that they're putting on orders and doing things to make those orders more badass, but there are fundamental limits to that system that are kinda frustrating and don't solve the problems intrinsic to the army, or offer better solutions than forgeworld does.

**ansacs**

I think people are misunderstanding a key point of this Detachment of Formations (DoF). In most DoF's they require a core and maybe a command. In this DoF literally the only requirement is 1+ command...which is a 50 pts company command squad. Which BTW is one of the best close in shooting unit in the game. So for 120 pts you can take a unit which can shoot 8 plasma shots with either ignore cover or tank/monster hunters. Which is 5 models so can be stuck in a vendetta or drop pod with no problems.

IMO one of the most powerful ways to play this DoF will probably be spamming a bunch of 4x special weapon CCS and putting them in BA drop pods. However the two core formations are actually pretty powerful but deceptively so. The emperor's fist tank company is actually very strong when you consider the combination of effectively making all punisher and vanquisher leman russ tanks BS4 and making the opponent take the lowest of 2d6 on the pen chart against an AV14 tank likely with cover. My only complaint on this DoF is that the core formations I have seen use up so many points that you can barely take an Aux choice.

PS Ironically the infantry core choice which requires 165 infantry models in infantry platoons is one of the few things in the game which can statistically cause a wound a wound a turn against 2+ rerollable units. Funny but not realistic.

**the_scotsman**

....Im gonna need you to examine that statement that 4x plasma ccs are among the best shooting units in the game.

Grav centurions, white scars ignores cover grav bikers, Scatterbikes and battle servitors exist and tend to be a bit better than a bunch of T3 infantry models who lose 1 model a turn to gets hot.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

the_scotsman wrote:
....Im gonna need you to examine that statement that 4x plasma ccs are among the best shooting units in the game.

Grav centurions, white scars ignores cover grav bikers, Scatterbikes and battle servitors exist and tend to be a bit better than a bunch of T3 infantry models who lose 1 model a turn to gets hot.

But none of those are as cheap. Orders are more reliable then Psykic shenanigans unless your list is built around it and using a Vendetta or Drop Pod you can always assure you get to alpha strike. Might not be the best shooting unit in the game, but they are very good for their price.

**Ustis**

Okay, as I'm sure the rest of the long suffering guard players will agree with, It's nice to see the guard finally getting some love.
Artillery has improved tenfold now they will be reliably twin linked and ignores cover, jinking units are going to get pounded by basilisks.

Psykana division has got me excited (manifesting on 2+!) and lots of warp charges.

Most of all the tank squadrons will now all be bs4 so punishers get drastically improved, as do LRBT will trio heavy bolters, not to mention vanquishers.

I think possibly the coolest and my favourite would be the emperors blade assault company. All the vets can roll up to objectives in their chimeras and hellhounds with preferred enemy like special forces.

**Kanluwen**

the_scotsman wrote:

1) GWs site is selling 2 infantry squads, a command squad box, a sentinel and 2 HWTs as "everything you need to field a Shield Infantry Platoon." Bit of a head scratcher, and it's been mentioned that it is possible that the Shield requiring one to have five INFANTRY squads, rather than a platoon containing 5 squads of any kind (pcs infantry HW etc).

Just so we're clear?
The exact wording we've seen is "a minimum of 5 Infantry Squads" per Shield Infantry Platoon(meaning 5 Infantry Squads of 10 Guardsmen with Lasguns). There's several of us thinking that it's the opposite way, as the bundle just cannot make that otherwise.

**the_scotsman**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....Im gonna need you to examine that statement that 4x plasma ccs are among the best shooting units in the game.

Grav centurions, white scars ignores cover grav bikers, Scatterbikes and battle servitors exist and tend to be a bit better than a bunch of T3 infantry models who lose 1 model a turn to gets hot.

But none of those are as cheap. Orders are more reliable then Psykic shenanigans unless your list is built around it and using a Vendetta or Drop Pod you can always assure you get to alpha strike. Might not be the best shooting unit in the game, but they are very good for their price.

A ccs is 60, 4 plasma is 60, Chimera is 65. That's 185 points.

That gets you nearly 7 Scatterbikes. Or a riptide.

**Tibs Ironblood**

I was honestly hoping for a formation entirely built around conscripts. I am sadly dissapointed. I wanted to FLOOD the table with conscripts and laugh as all my men die.

It would also be pretty amusing to see a conscript tide versus a green tide.

FIX BAYONETS MEN! MEET THEM HEAD ON, Charge!

**Grimskul**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I was honestly hoping for a formation entirely built around conscripts. I am sadly dissapointed. I wanted to FLOOD the table with conscripts and laugh as all my men die.

It would also be pretty amusing to see a conscript tide versus a green tide.

FIX BAYONETS MEN! MEET THEM HEAD ON, Charge!

Alas the old days of Chenkov's waves of regenerating conscripts are behind us. The closest we have to that nowadays is the DKoK Assault Brigade list.

**Ether**

ansacs wrote:
IMO one of the most powerful ways to play this DoF will probably be spamming a bunch of 4x special weapon CCS and putting them in BA drop pods.

I agree. You make an excellent point on the strength of the command squads and the flexibility of the detachment. Probably not RAI, but an interesting boost none the less.

ansacs wrote:
The emperor's fist tank company is actually very strong when you consider the combination of effectively making all punisher and vanquisher leman russ tanks BS4 and making the opponent take the lowest of 2d6 on the pen chart against an AV14 tank likely with cover.

So, I'm not sold here. While I agree that BS 4 is an improvement, I still think you're going to need substantial divination support to make these squadrons work out offensively. Because of both cover saves and the unreliability of BS 4, prescience and the ignores cover power are going to be pretty important. Fortunately we have tools for this

Still, such things were already available through the armored company list from forgeworld; coaxial heavy stubbers, beast hunter shells etc. An elegant solution would have been improved tank commander orders as his are currently used to overcome the fact that he's stuck in a squadron. As for the pen results, my vehicles tend to disappear to either massed krak grenades in assault or to getting hull pointed out. 18 grav gun shots eliminates a russ out of cover, and I don't see much here that will help that.

As has been said, there are useful formations in here that I intend to make use of, and I'm really glad that the guard have been getting some love. I just wish there were solutions to hit and run bike stars, gladius spam, double-D knight, and the decurion. Or at the very least solutions unique from those found in IA:1.

**the_scotsman**

A Culexus assassin paired with an artillery formation with manticore, 2 Basilisks and a wyvern would be a pretty solid answer to that kind of star.

Just recently I took a manticore against a command squad bike-star in an Iron Hands Gladius, and i think if it had been twin linked it probably would've killed them all. Just one solid pie plate knocked out the apothecary and one biker, and the Culexus rocked Mini-Smashcaptain in a challenge and his Libby the following round. Eventually they took him out but he was left with just two bikers.

I went into that thinking I was totally outclassed the Gladius list but I underestimated just how good S10 paired with the Culexus was.

**Belac Ynnead**

Not a Guard player - yet! (In the process of assembling my first infantry squad actually) But I think the consensus is correct - the formations themselves will be more useful than the entire Cadian Battle Group.

But look closely at the wording of the High Command rule. The CCS gets to issue three orders rather than two. The other benefits only work on units that are part of the detachment, but the first one seems independent, yes?

It's not a big catch, but if you're planning on running a CCS anyway, you may as well have one with 3 orders not 2 right?

**the_scotsman**

True, if there was no detachment limit, I would absolutely run a CAD with Pask as Hq then use Cadian battlegroup ccses.

**Kanluwen**

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Not a Guard player - yet! (In the process of assembling my first infantry squad actually) But I think the consensus is correct - the formations themselves will be more useful than the entire Cadian Battle Group.

Nothing saying you can't use the formations by themselves without running the Cadian Battle Group. Per the BRB on page 121, Formations are a special type of Detachment.

But look closely at the wording of the High Command rule. The CCS gets to issue three orders rather than two. The other benefits only work on units that are part of the detachment, but the first one seems independent, yes?

Yup. And if you take JUST that Company Command Squad with the High Command rule and roll on the Astra Militarum Warlord traits(or hell, the Cadian Warlord traits)? You can have your Company Commander issue an additional Order to boot.

It's not a big catch, but if you're planning on running a CCS anyway, you may as well have one with 3 orders not 2 right?

You can already do that pretty easily by throwing Creed into a CCS.

**the_scotsman**

Creed costs 80 points. What possible reason does he have to exist when battlegroup commander now exists?

**Ether**

the_scotsman wrote:
Creed costs 80 points. What possible reason does he have to exist when battlegroup commander now exists?

2 warlord traits and rerollable orders ld tests which can be handy when you're dealing with units that can't take a vox caster (forgeworld artillery platforms, special/heavy weapons squads, and ratlings). I think the detachment command squad can upgrade to Creed netting you 4 orders, but I might be wrong on that.

**Kanluwen**

the_scotsman wrote:
Creed costs 80 points. What possible reason does he have to exist when battlegroup commander now exists?

Double Warlord traits?

I mean, if you wanted to try for it he can potentially be issuing 5 Orders a turn,rerolling failed Orders.
Roll once on AM, once on Cadia. Each of those tables have a thing for an additional Order.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ether wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Creed costs 80 points. What possible reason does he have to exist when battlegroup commander now exists?

I think the detachment command squad can upgrade to Creed netting you 4 orders, but I might be wrong on that.

Sadly not. The "High Command" special rule is that a Company Commander in BGC can issue up to three Orders per turn and can issue them to units that are up to 24" away rather than 12".

So yeah, the BGC does get a bit of an edge over Creed--but nothing stopping you from taking both.

**son_of_osiris**

Does anyone know the English translations for the new Cadian relics? I can't read German :(. I can make out that there is one involving tank commanders haha

**Kanluwen**

son_of_osiris wrote:
Does anyone know the English translations for the new Cadian relics? I can't read German :(. I can make out that there is one involving tank commanders haha

I posted them in the 40k General Discussion thread about it, but here you go:

Celeritas 10 points
S User AP -- Melee, Deadly Riposte, Master-Crafted.
Deadly Riposte: When fighting in a challenge, a model wielding Celeritas has an Invulnerable Save of 4+. For each successful save made by the model during a challenge, it can immediately make an attack with Celeritas that hits automatically and has the Rending special rule, even if the model is slain as the result of failing other saves at the same time.

The Iron Left 25 points
S +2 AP 3 Melee

Volkov's Cane 10 points
S User AP 4 Melee, Concussive.
Company Commander only. When a model carrying Volkov's Cane issues an Order to a unit within 6", the Leadership test will only fail on a roll of a double 6.

Standard of the Lost 113th 30 points
One Veteran in the army that can carry a Regimental Standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th. This follows the same rules as a Regimental Standard. At the start of your Movement Phase, you can declare that the bearer will plant the standard and fight to the last. The bearer's unit cannot Move, Run, or Charge for the rest of the game, but it and any friendly Cadian units within 18" are Fearless.

Kabe's Herald 20 points
A Tank Commander in your army may be equipped with Kabe's Herald. When a model equipped with Kabe's Herald uses its Tank Orders special rule, you can pick any other Leman Russ squadrons within 12"; each of these squadrons is also affected by the Tank Order, as though it was part of the Tank Commander's unit. If the Tank Commander chose the "Gunners, Kill on Sight" order, any other squadrons that are affected gain the Split Fire special rule for the duration of the phase.

Wrath of Cadia 5 points
12" S3 AP -- Pistol, Punitive
Punitive: A weapon with this special rule always wounds on a roll of 4+. In addition, when making armour saves against attacks made by a weapon with this special rule, a roll of 3 or less will always fail, even if the target's Save characteristic is 3+ or better.

**son_of_osiris**

Thanks! Honestly, that tank commander relic is not too bad for the Leman Russ core formation. The tank commander can the group much more flexible.

**Kanluwen**

son_of_osiris wrote:
Thanks! Honestly, that tank commander relic is not too bad for the Leman Russ core formation. The tank commander can the group much more flexible.

Oh yeah. Kabe's Herald is basically a "must have" when you have the Core Formation. With enough tanks, you're doing BS4 Split-Fired shots when using "Gunners, Kill on Sight!".