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So since the beginning of getting into 40k bikes have always been my worst enemy. They've always been able to outmaneuver can, hit harder, and destroy just about anything in my army.

I play pretty much a guard only army with cullexus assassin support.

I have enough models where I play, mech, armored, and infantry/blob horde.

My latest encounter was a raven wing force with 2 units of bikes that had rerollable cover saves and a speeder with a rerollable cover save.

How can guard deal with fast jinking bikes, especially rerollable cover which is usually a 2+

Thanks for the advice. I usually use wyverns but with the bikes spaced out the most I can hit with on blast is usually 2.

Well, as you said Wyverns are great for putting wounds through using massed wounds, but spaced out bikes+small blasts is not good for getting those wounds through. You could try a Leman Russ Eradicator, which has that delicious cover-ignoring large blast, plus it's a high-enough strength that you shouldn't have too much trouble getting wounds on the squad. It won't ignore their armor, but Guard doesn't have much in the way of ignores cover, so we can't do much about it. Lastly maybe try massed lasguns+orders. One of our orders (I forget which one) grants a unit ignores cover on their shooting. Use the order on a blob and then open up on the foe, they'll still get their armor save, but it's better than them having a 2+ cover save.

As mentioned, Wyverns and Eradicators will ignore the re-reollable 2+. More importantly, try and eliminate the Darkshroud. Deep striking meltas and a Manticore will help with that task. Also, a table with sufficient terrain will limit the ability of bike squads to spread out and still take full advantage of the Darkshroud.

No matter what, it will be an uphill climb. IG lacks some of the tools to take on the better formations and lists in the game right now.

We actually have something for this now, grab that new artillery formation from Mont'ka and give the ignores cover order to some basilisks! It's the only guard formation that's worthwhile in the whole book!

Plasma vets with Fire on My Target (ignores cover) order can do well. You can also give that order to DSing platoon command, special weapons, command, scion, and scion platoon command squads, all of whom can load up on high strength low AP weaponry. Heck, even the master of ordnance can pick up IC through that order.

A las canon blob with divination and/or order support can do work too, but if you start heading down that route, you'd really want to look into forge world artillery. The medusa siege guns and rapier batteries wreck house and can take orders. Then there's the stormsword, but it's pretty pricey.

stormswords will eat them alive. I have to say that is an expensive, but very effective vehicle.

Ignore cover with armor cutting weapons is the way to go outside of that. Plasma vets / Scions (from main book) work, but die quickly. Forgeworld artillery are also wonderful.

Outside of those, just mass firepower i guess. Could always go with the conscript blob with priest to charge and lock them in a forever combat.

Thanks for the advice!

Yea I've slowly started to realize that I need a CCS in every army now just so I can get that ignores cover order.

I have used the eradicator, and wyverns which are usually mandatory in my lists

I feel like running blobs is the go to route now over vets.

I did see there's that artillery formation. It looks pretty awesome and sounds pretty good. I've got 2 wyverns and a manticore for artillery so a ccs in a chimera will help me there.

If I don't have ignores that dark shroud with its 2+ rerollable cover is pretty much impossible to kill.

The ap3 hellhound (cant remember, devil dog?) wrecks bikes. Take 3 of them. Keeps the enemy from advancing till they are gone.

That would be the banewolf. The problem with the banewolf is that it isn't torrent, so you have to actually catch the bikes.

You could use basalisk artillery carriages. They can take orders for ignore cover, and drop bassie pie plates.

maceria wrote:
That would be the banewolf. The problem with the banewolf is that it isn't torrent, so you have to actually catch the bikes.

Not to mention they're pants against everything else in the game. I don't honestly think I've seen them on a tabletop since they were introduced years ago.

You could use basalisk artillery carriages. They can take orders for ignore cover, and drop bassie pie plates.

Medusas would be even better since the S10 would insta-gib characters, but yeah, artillery carriages would wreck face and they're cheap in points.

I was thinking bassies for range and not needing LOS

That's been one of my problems, getting forge world. It's so expensive.

I think my go to in most of my armies will be a lascannon blob with a ccs to give the ignores cover orders.

Now for this ccs how should I equip them? Throw them in a chimera for safety?

Unfortunately for Guard many of the cool units for us are FW only, the carriages being one of them.

A "dumb" answer is to not even try.

Ravenwing are a low model count force. Spam enough infantry and they'll simply fail to cut through your man due to simple lack of shots/slashes.

Run the new Cadian battlegroup formation. Take only a command slot. It's a single ccs, doesn't take up a HQ slot. Give em 4 plasma guns and just run around ignore cover blasting them.

Alternate ideas: run a forgeworld Earthshaker carriage. Why bother with a formation when you can have an order able basilisk for near half the price? Ignore cover pie plates, baby.

Wyvern. Short. Simple. Does loads of wounds.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A "dumb" answer is to not even try.

Ravenwing are a low model count force. Spam enough infantry and they'll simply fail to cut through your man due to simple lack of shots/slashes.

This was going to be my ideas. As I mentioned running that lascannon blob I figured I might give that cadian battle group a shot. Minimum your running like 165 infantry and 3 sentinels at 1005 pts I believe. Just spend the rest to give upgrades and heavy weapons and special weapons all over.

Figured I would then compliment it with the artillery formation which requires 2 units of basilisk, wyverns, or hydras with a ccs in chimera and a manticore or death strike and a tech priest. The artillery can get orders from the ccs. And anyone with a vox in my army can call coordinates for the artillery units of the enemy is writhin 18" of the vox which makes any of the unit twinlinked.

Or I was gunna run a melta/scion platoon in airborne formation. Drop them in front of the bikes and with the high command ccs I would order ignores cover on them as the order range for the ccs I. The high command is 24" the valks an vendettas have a rule where they can do a low altitude drop. They take a dangerous terrain test for any terrain they move over that's 3" or taller but any units that's do the grav drop don't scatter.

That would be the banewolf. The problem with the banewolf is that it isn't torrent, so you have to actually catch the bikes.

True, but at least it's on a fast vehicle. If it produces a 'keep away, keep away' threat bubble, it's probably done it's job.

A normal hellhound still strikes me as a better buy, though. S6 Torrent flamers can do unpleasant things to bike units.

As noted, Fire On My Target is the primary answer. An infantry-heavy army with plenty of assault weapons can put out a disturbing amount of Ignores Cover plasma and volley gun fire for very few points.

Other than that, an infantry heavy force allows plenty of speedbumps. Yes, ravenwing have hit and run, but they still can't hit and run from one combat into another, so multiple layered squads can protect your tanks, artillery and heavy weapons for several turns.

Why don't you kill them in mellee with power axes?
If they don't come close, lazgun fire - probably with frfsrf or ignore cover - will kill a few and it's allready meaningful for bikes. If they come closer, well. Here comes s4 ap2 with rerolls.

I would use power axes but I always feel like it's a large investment. I almost always have a heavy weapon lascannon or autocannon in the unit already and then I have melta bombs on the sergeants because monstrous creatures and walkers will just tie up the blobs if I don't have grenades somewhere. Then to add power axes would be so much.

Close combat is the weakness of the bikes. As Orks I usually annihilate these dark angels bike formations. But thats because I can move my battlewagon 6" forward. disembark 6". Run up to 6" and then charge with a rule that allows me to reroll one of the d6.

Maybe counter the bikes with some Rough Riders. He probably wouldn't see that coming!

If you focus on shooting him against his biggest strength the 2+ re-rollable cover saves you are missing all his weaknesses.

Use your strengths against his weaknesses, not the other way around.

Mass flamers, mass low strength rapid-firepower is your tool. Killing just one bike in overwatch = free kills.

enable MSU. enable tarpit units.

Strategically making him assault you in cover helps remove bike models for dangerous terrain = free kills and helps nix his mobility advantage.

You may have to really think about it, but that is what is enjoyable about war-games. My strategy vs his strategy, not my model$ vs his model$.

fortress of redemption, im honestly not kidding. bikes cant do anything about units behind void shields inside a fortification like a fort o redemption. he has to come to you and when he does he has to accept the fact that his shooting will be rubbish and his ability to fight the men inside in cc will be greatly hampered.

the sad reality that the hard counter to bikes is fortifications and fortifications are awful for things like maelstrom o war

Death Strike Missile Launchers. For kicks and giggles, I knew I was playing a guy who loved Ravening formations, so, he had that nasty 2+/3+ re-rollable link shenanigans. Yes, it was a tailored list, Pask in punisher, with punisher wingman, a couple squads, 3 Deathstrikes, and some other various units. Watching the big pie plates drop 2nd and 3rd turn was fun to watch his bikes die without any sort of a save.

Wow there are a lot of weird answers here.

Part of the reason people are having trouble answering this question is that they are trying to answer it for multiple distinct different playstyles with no real concept of the missions you play. If you play eternal war vs maelstorm the answer to what needs to be done is vastly different. Also there is a huge difference as to whether your meta operates from the book or with a specific tournament packet (ie many places are ITC or Nova restrictions/missions).

However some general advice I would give that can help overall;
-Forcing RW to jink helps most armies but does little to nothing for IG. The RW player can and will vastly outfight you in melee thus you have to do your damage in shooting. Power Axe sarges will do nothing as their sarge can challenge yours in single sarge units and even in a blobb the biker opponent can just avoid you and outscore on objectives or charge you with a bunch of units and mostly wipe you before you swing; btw BK get 4 attacks on the charge, hit on 3+, wound on 2+, and rend. Even a unit of 3 black knights will kill 5 IG infantry on the charge. Due to there being 2 melee phases every game turn that means a black knight unit will usually wipe an infantry squad a turn. Also IG infantry hit on 4+, wound on 6+, and have to deal with a 3+ armour save.
-As for fortifications. That could actually work out to a degree if you took a vindicare assassin to give you some nice ignore cover shooting. Without ignore cover most bike opponents bring something to deal with high AV. Personally I bring melta bombs on the black knight sarges. Even if the biker army doesn't deal with the fortification they will still be able to outscore you unless you can deal some significant damage to make up for the 500+ pts of fortification.
-The hellhound series of vehicles are so slow and so small range that there is a much higher chance of the bikes killing them than them doing significant damage. The hellhound itself isn't terrible as it is likely to get one minimally effective shot but the bane wolf will fail to do anything the vast majority of the time.

Stuff that works
+The main method to for IG to deal with RW is ignore cover. We have consistent access to ignore cover through the wyvern, senior officer "fire on my target", and several forgeworld units. IG cannot realistically hope to out MSU or out melee the majority of bike armies bike armies are just so much more maneuverable than anything IG have.
+Wyverns actually work extremely well on anything not T7+ or a vehicle so for cheap unit you can consistently put an average of 1 wound per wyvern on any unit of bikes.
+The new formations from Mont'Ka has a lot of stuff that is good for adding a lot of tactical flexibility.
*The artillery formation is actually good for this. It allows you to issue fire on my target (ignore cover) on artillery vehicle units with pretty good reliability.
*The psykana formation can let you get off a lot of psychic screams which do a decent job of killing bike units due to ignoring cover and armour saves as well as not being toughness based.
*Company Command Squads are an oft overlooked shooting unit that can for 120 pts come out of a drop pod (155 pts) or vendetta (290 pts) and shoot 8 BS4 ignore cover (or monster/tank hunters) Str7 AP2 shots. This is a unit that can drop down and average a 4.5 dead bikes. BTW the new DoF (Detachment of Formations) in Mont'Ka has 1 requirement; 1+ CCS's that also get free bonus rules...nice.
+My personal favorite is a unit of earthshaker heavy artillery carriages from forgeworld with Yarrick throwing orders on the unit. They will reliably delete a unit a turn (and you can always get a second unit if needed). Forgeworld also has the colossus with Str3 AP3 ignore cover large blasts.
+If you play mek vets then even they can work you just need to get fire on my target on one of the plasma gun toting units and they will cause some serious damage, of course this means disembarking though so you need to be smart.

Hopefully some of that helps. Good luck.

It was certainly some much needed information. I am looking into the new DoF from mont'ka. I think the infantry horde will give me a good advantage of mixing blobs and msu at the same time if I take that infantry company that requires each of the platoons to have 5 infantry squads in each. So my goal will be to have a lascannon blob, an auto cannon blob and then probably just use the remaining squads to be msu and run around and act as speed bumps if needed.

I unfortunately won't have access to forge world as models are expensive and so are the books for the rules. But I am certainly looking into the artillery formation from mont'ka. I plan on a barebones ccs in chimera to issue some orders to them. Then I plan on running 2 wyverns and either a manticore or a death strike. I figured with vox casters on all the infantry units the death strike or manticore would be twinlinked shooting at just about any target that gets close. Should be able to delete a bike unit with that 5" radius if they aren't spaced out too much.

I wanted to use the Russ company but russes just don't have anything unique to them. They are hard to kill at range but most russes are pretty poor and over costed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psykana division was also cool I just wasn't a fan of having to choose the 3 units of wyrdvane psykers. They seem pretty fragile in the open. Granted they do have some nice psychic buffs I feel like a primaris psyker in the blob would also be a big help of twinlinking the big guns. Then shoot some psychic screams around with all the units.

Yarrick is the best source for Orders since he can hide in a blob and will rape face in HtH if they assault him. Don't listen to the dude saying IG can't MSU against ravenwing, considering 1 CAD platoon can grab you 15 units plus a tank all with obsec and the most expensive unit being the tank at 65pts. If you felt inclined you definitely could just ignore him and pig pile objectives.

Yea I plan on using msu. To many times I've played people with large amount of models in blobs but only having a few units my opponents can just focus fire those units.

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of yarrick. He's always seemed to do so poorly for me and seems like he's really expensive.

Red Corsair wrote:Don't listen to the dude saying IG can't MSU against ravenwing, considering 1 CAD platoon can grab you 15 units plus a tank all with obsec and the most expensive unit being the tank at 65pts. If you felt inclined you definitely could just ignore him and pig pile objectives.

I should have probably given a more complete statement of the concept I was putting forward when I said you cannot out MSU the bike army. What I meant was that trying to flood the board with MSU IG and win against a RW player is in fact an almost assured lose. It is in fact nearly impossible to win using this method and can be shown mathematically.

For 130 pts IG can get 2 infantry squads while for 120 pts the RW get a unit of 3 black knights. Now yes the IG has 3 units with ObjSec versus 1 RW unit...great! However we are talking about an entire army. So we take 30 units of IG versus 10 RW units. The RW units move 12" and have scout. The board has a max diameter of 72" thus the RW player can actually start the game having stopped the IG player from even having the ability to move past the midboard. Now you might think that you could just hang on and hope for good objective draws. That would also be wrong. A RW black knight unit will average 4.9 dead IG infantry in a single assault phase. So if we take just the assault phases in the game and ignore the RW players shooting and that the IG infantry will fail morale most of the time and be chased down then we find that it takes 2+2+1 assault phases for the RW player to kill the entire IG MSU army (ie 3 game turns). Board spacing actually only helps the RW player as their units can be condensed more than the IG player if needed. Also this ignore multicharges which when combined with failed leadership checks in assault would mean the IG player is likely to be tabled by the end of Game Turn 4.

The more tanks you take the worse this becomes. If you take Yarrick you might actually last until the end of turn 5 due to his morale abilities and close combat abilities. Keep in mind also that this gives the IG player +8% pts.

Now if you use the Renegades FW army list then this strategy absolutely works. Their units are cheap enough and have good morale and abilities to help them move up the board (ie unending detachment or zombies of vraks). Also the Death Korps assault list can manage this pretty well.

Why MSU works in the gladius is that it is nearly impossible to kill them before the game ends and they have vehicles and drop pods to get them on objectives. They also output relatively good damage due to a combination of tactical rerolls, krak grenades, SM stats, and boltguns.

To be honest those are most of the common issues that I run across. Pretty much all the codexs that have come out this edition end up being an up hill battle for the guard.

I've had some success MSU-ing with guard by running mechanized platoons where the transports are the sneaky fast objective grabbers and the blobs are the area denying units. This lets you force the opponent to choose between the mission and dealing with the blob who gets fearless, hatred, hidden characters, and psychic powers quite efficiently.

In a vacuum the blob will lose to an equivalent points value in bikes, but since games =/= vacuums, you can force choices and whittle down bikes by using obsec transports to claim/contest points and grunts to tar pit expensive units. If he avoids combat with the blob, shoot with ignores cover. If he gets stuck in, score points while he's down on contesting units.

The hellhound has a 30" range. I've never struggled to get it some place useful.

Scouting is solved by a 34 point inquisitor ally. Not sure why anyone things scouts are going to get to go anywhere.

If FW is too pricey, you can make a colossus/medusa out of a basilisk by cutting down/magnetizing the barrel of the basilisk so that it looks like a shorter version of itself. You can then also add layers of telescoping barrels with plasticard tubes.