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If a unit is forced to disembark from a transport the opposing player destroys on their turn, can the controlling player then move that unit in his next movement phase?

I ask because the line under the disembark rules "After disembarking, models can manifest their psychic powers and either shoot or Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, counting as having moved that turn,” seems to disallow it.

Yes the unit can move. The unit acts as if it disembarked on it's own turn basically, so does all the normal actions beyond charging (unless the transport was an Assault Transport)

But if it counts as having moved after it disembarked on the opponents turn how can it move again?

Cindis wrote:
I"After disembarking, models can manifest their psychic powers and either shoot or Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, counting as having moved that turn,”

This sentence states what the unit may do during its Shooting Phase. I don't think it describes the Movement Phase.

Also don't forget the Pinning test!

Because the disembark on the enemy turn counts as its move? It says it can shoot and run but it looks like they cant actually move on their turn if the opposing player destroyed their transport during his turn.

It sounds like you're hung up on the ambiguous English here. I think I see how "counting as having moved" could apply outside of the Shooting Phase, but I don't think anyone plays it that way.

It counts as having moved for that one player turn. So during the rest of your opponent's shooting phase and their assault phase, you count as moved. Then the turn ends, as does the effect of the disembarking.

Disembark only affects one turn. It's not going to affect both your opponents turn and your turn, other than that you can't assault out of a Rhino that blows up on your opponent's turn.

demonwalker wrote:
It counts as having moved for that one player turn. So during the rest of your opponent's shooting phase and their assault phase, you count as moved. Then the turn ends, as does the effect of the disembarking.

Disembark only affects one turn. It's not going to affect both your opponents turn and your turn, other than that you can't assault out of a Rhino that blows up on your opponent's turn.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong.

If you are forced to disembark in your opponent's turn, you count as having moved in your subsequent shooting and assault phases.

Barring any other effects being applied, the unit can still move as normal, because it only counts as having moved for those specific phases.

demonwalker wrote:
It counts as having moved for that one player turn. So during the rest of your opponent's shooting phase and their assault phase, you count as moved. Then the turn ends, as does the effect of the disembarking.

Disembark only affects one turn. It's not going to affect both your opponents turn and your turn, other than that you can't assault out of a Rhino that blows up on your opponent's turn.

This is incorrect. The rule says:

"After disembarking, models can manifest their psychic powers and either shoot or Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, counting as having moved that turn, but they cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase."

When it says "that turn" it refers to the turn in which the models' subsequent Shooting phase occurs. Clearly it doesn't affect both your opponent's and your turn because you cannot manifest your psychic powers, shoot or Run in their turn.

Cindis wrote:
But if it counts as having moved after it disembarked on the opponents turn how can it move again?

The "counts as moved during shooting and assault phase" is there so that your models cannot stay stationary and claim the benefits of such, like firing a heavy weapon at full effectiveness. Movement is normally allowed during your movement phase, and nothing in this rule restricts that.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

demonwalker wrote:
It counts as having moved for that one player turn. So during the rest of your opponent's shooting phase and their assault phase, you count as moved. Then the turn ends, as does the effect of the disembarking.

Disembark only affects one turn. It's not going to affect both your opponents turn and your turn, other than that you can't assault out of a Rhino that blows up on your opponent's turn.

This is incorrect. The rule says:

"After disembarking, models can manifest their psychic powers and either shoot or Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, counting as having moved that turn, but they cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase."

When it says "that turn" it refers to the turn in which the models' subsequent Shooting phase occurs. Clearly it doesn't affect both your opponent's and your turn because you cannot manifest your psychic powers, shoot or Run in their turn.

It would seem that by RAW you would count as having moved for the turn though, not only those two phases - as the word turn refers to all four phases: movement, psychic, shooting, and assault.

“In a complete game turn, each player gets a player turn, divided into Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault phases” under The Turn section in BRB

No, that's not what it says.

You count as having moved that turn, but only at the times specified.

Or, obviously, if you actually moved that turn.

It says you count as having moved "that turn" after you disembark though. It even outlines what a player can do in that turn after disembarking - movement is not mentioned as a unit is already counted as having moved. Only psychic powers and shooting would seem to be allowed per RAW.

Cindis wrote:
It says you count as having moved "that turn" after you disembark though. .

Yes, it does. It also says when that applies.

It doesn't say that they count as having moved for the entire turn. It says that when they act in the psychic and shooting phases they count as having moved that turn.

But the word turn specifically encompasses all four phases, and the wording would seem to point very unambiguously to counting as having moved for the turn as a whole, and not the phases mentioned? Else why would they use the word turn when they only wanted it to count for the phases mentioned? Shouldn't it instead read "that phase"?

Because they wanted to specify the pont in time this counts for. So it lasts the following turn, AT those specific points. This is dififcult to argue, as tehy even specify the precise pooints during which they count as having moved.

It really could be taken either way. English has been used in both perspectives and been grammatically correct.

If I remember how my group plays it, they usually allow for movement in the Movement Phase after disembarking a Wreck. But that's just the local perspective.

You can normally only disembark during your own movement phase; when you do so the whole unit counts as having moved(therefore snapshots with heavies, mived profile for salvo, and cannot fire ordnance)

The beginning of your turn always resets movement to "not yet moved" unless a rule specifies otherwise, whether you had moved in your or your opponent's last turn.

Cindis wrote:
But the word turn specifically encompasses all four phases, and the wording would seem to point very unambiguously to counting as having moved for the turn as a whole, and not the phases mentioned? Else why would they use the word turn when they only wanted it to count for the phases mentioned? Shouldn't it instead read "that phase"?

No.

You're hung up on what a turn is, and not looking at how the word is actually being used in this particular case.

'Counts as having moved that turn' means they count as having moved during that turn, not that they count as having moved for that entire turn.

In the shooting phase, they count as having moved that turn. They don't count as having moved that turn for the entire turn.

 insaniak wrote:

Cindis wrote:
But the word turn specifically encompasses all four phases, and the wording would seem to point very unambiguously to counting as having moved for the turn as a whole, and not the phases mentioned? Else why would they use the word turn when they only wanted it to count for the phases mentioned? Shouldn't it instead read "that phase"?

No.

You're hung up on what a turn is, and not looking at how the word is actually being used in this particular case.

'Counts as having moved that turn' means they count as having moved during that turn, not that they count as having moved for that entire turn.

In the shooting phase, they count as having moved that turn. They don't count as having moved that turn for the entire turn.

It depends on if you see that comma as a list or separating a caveat.

I do believe most people see it as the caveat, meaning a side note to the previous statement regarding Running and Shooting in their Shooting Phase. This would mean it does not apply to the Movement, Psychic, or Assault Phases.

I'll re-read this when I get home. I believe I've been playing it wrong.

It appears that, while eligible to move, the unit forced to disembark (Emergency Disembark) counts as having moved whether or not it does. Why? Because 'that turn' refers to the subsequent shooting phase, which is the controlling player's next turn (as opposed to 'this turn' or 'the current turn' or 'the turn in which they are forced to disembark').

Very interesting.

DCannon4Life wrote:
I'll re-read this when I get home. I believe I've been playing it wrong.

It appears that, while eligible to move, the unit forced to disembark (Emergency Disembark) counts as having moved whether or not it does. Why? Because 'that turn' refers to the subsequent shooting phase, which is the controlling player's next turn (as opposed to 'this turn' or 'the current turn' or 'the turn in which they are forced to disembark').

Very interesting.

It is puzzling - since turn, as used in the rules is a very specific word defined as consisting of all four phases. Elsewhere in the rules you can see GW are very careful to differentiate between their use of the word "turn" and "phase" and nowhere yet that I can find have the two words been used interchangeably.

So since you count as having moved "that turn" after disembarking it seems you would be unable to move normally during your subsequent movement phase as I can find no allowance for a unit being able to make more than one move in it's movement phase, nor is there any mention of moving normally in the rule that describes what you can do the turn after disembarking.

DCannon4Life wrote:
It appears that, while eligible to move, the unit forced to disembark (Emergency Disembark) counts as having moved whether or not it does. Why? Because 'that turn' refers to the subsequent shooting phase, which is the controlling player's next turn (as opposed to 'this turn' or 'the current turn' or 'the turn in which they are forced to disembark').

Yes, it's referring to the subsequent shooting phase... but it's referring specifically to that phase.

In that phase you count as having moved that turn.

You don't count as having moved that turn for the entire turn.

 insaniak wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
It appears that, while eligible to move, the unit forced to disembark (Emergency Disembark) counts as having moved whether or not it does. Why? Because 'that turn' refers to the subsequent shooting phase, which is the controlling player's next turn (as opposed to 'this turn' or 'the current turn' or 'the turn in which they are forced to disembark').

Yes, it's referring to the subsequent shooting phase... but it's referring specifically to that phase.

In that phase you count as having moved that turn.

You don't count as having moved that turn for the entire turn.

Nowhere in that sentence is that allowance made, you count as having moved for the turn (not phase) - you are then allowed to cast psychic powers, shoot or run.

Cindis wrote:
It is puzzling - since turn, as used in the rules is a very specific word defined as consisting of all four phases. Elsewhere in the rules you can see GW are very careful to differentiate between their use of the word "turn" and "phase" and nowhere yet that I can find have the two words been used interchangeably.

They're not being used interchangeably.

Moving in the movement phase affects what you can do in later phases. So if the rule just said that you count as having moved in the shooting phase, that wouldn't actually work.

Instead, in the shooting and psychic phases, you can act as per normal but you count as having moved that turn.

This has no effect on any other phase. In those phases you count as having moved that turn. In other phases, you don't.


If you eat a cookie at lunchtime, you count as having eaten today. That doesn't mean that at breakfast time you counted as having eaten that day, even though a 'day' encompases the whole 24 hours.

So since you count as having moved "that turn" after disembarking it

You're talking about two different turns here.

On the turn that they disembark, they count as having moved. Because they moved to disembark.

On the subsequent turn, they count as having moved in the shooting and psychic phases. They don't count as having moved for that entire turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cindis wrote:
Nowhere in that sentence is that allowance made,

What 'allowance' are you referring to?

And yet turn is defined quite clearly as including the movement, psychic, shooting and assault phases earlier in the rulebook, so if you count as having moved for the turn you would therefore count as having moved for all four phases that one player turn includes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

They don't count as having moved for that entire turn.

This is the allowance I'm referring to - where does it say they do not count as moving for the entire turn and only the two phases mentioned in the rule in question?

Cindis wrote:

And yet turn is defined quite clearly as including the movement, psychic, shooting and assault phases earlier in the rulebook, so if you count as having moved for the turn you would therefore count as having moved for all four phases that one player turn includes.

Yes... In the psychic and shooting phases, you count as having moved that turn.

You can apply whatever definition you want to the term 'turn' and it will make absolutely zero difference to any other phase.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cindis wrote:

They don't count as having moved for that entire turn.

This is the allowance I'm referring to -

That's not an allowance. It's a lack of any rule saying that they count as having moved for the entire turn.

The rule in question only applies the limitation to two specific phases. In those phases, they count as having moved that turn. So in other phases, they won't count as having moved that turn unless they actually moved, or some other rule says to pretend that they did.

And this is what I meant regarding the difference between a list and caveat perspective.

If in the list perspective, the "counting as having moved that turn" ignores the previous statement as being applicable to it aside from the "their subsequent" portion.

If in the caveat perspective, the "counting as having moved that turn" only applies to the "their subsequent shooting phase" and not the entire turn. In other words, if disembarking from a Wreck, the owning player's Movement Phase they are not having been considered as Moved, so they can move or not. But if even if they do not move during the Movement Phase, they still snap fire Heavy Weapons.

And given the way the rule is written, that latter interpretation is the correct one.

Charistoph wrote:

It depends on if you see that comma as a list or separating a caveat.

I do believe most people see it as the caveat, meaning a side note to the previous statement regarding Running and Shooting in their Shooting Phase. This would mean it does not apply to the Movement, Psychic, or Assault Phases.

To expand on this... I think it's pretty safe to call it a caveat, meaning it only applies to psychic and shooting phases, and you can move during your move phase.

Support for it being a caveat:

1) The grammar is wrong for it to be a list. If it's a list you should be able to put any part of the list in any position. If you put the movement caveat at the start of the list, it reads: "After disembarking, models... counting as having moved that turn..." The proper way to write that would have been "After disembarking, models... [count] as having moved that turn."

2) Everything else is listed chronologically. It would be weird for it to list psychic, then shooting, then go back to movement, and then finish with assault.

3) Not being able to move is a brutal penalty to impose on a unit that just got it's transport blown up already. I'm not sure any transport would be worth taking if you enforced that.

Support for it being a list:

(none)