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Hi dakka, I know each of the Chaos god and their negative effects, but as I understand they also each have positive aspects as well. For example:

Nurgle: Brotherhood, love, joy
Khorne: Honor, respect
Slaanesh: ? Maybe Pleasure is a two sided coin in this regard
Tzeentch: Knowledge?

Does anyone have more info on the specifics of this? Perhaps a source?

Slaanesh's virtue is pride and perfection - the allure of pushing oneself to be better, better than everyone, but not because you care what others think, but because you take pride in the quality and assurance of what you do.

I mean yeah, great sex and being high off your tits doesn't hurt, but historically it's about art, prowess and pushing yourself to improve.

Khorne was about martial prowess and honor originally if I remember right (those devoted to him didn't kill the weak, or women/children

Slaneesh was about pride and pushing yourself to be the best that you could.

Nurgle I don't remember, probably something about brotherhood

Tzeentch was knowledge if I remember right

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Hi dakka, I know each of the Chaos god and their negative effects, but as I understand they also each have positive aspects as well. For example:

Nurgle: Brotherhood, love, joy
Khorne: Honor, respect
Slaanesh: ? Maybe Pleasure is a two sided coin in this regard
Tzeentch: Knowledge?

Does anyone have more info on the specifics of this? Perhaps a source?

Not quite.

The implied (but never outright stated) 'positive' aspects of the Chaos Gods are;

Nurgle: Acceptance and Life.
- Everything is inevitable so just let it come.
- Constant expansion of disease and mould.
Khorne: Protection and Motherhood.
- Only kill the weak when all the strong are dead.
- Nothing bloodier than menstruation and childbirth.
Slaanesh: Perfection and Skill.
- Never being satisfied with 'good enough'.
- Practicing obsessively until you get it right.
Tzeentch: Hope and Knowledge.
- Things can always Change for the better.
- Magic is the understanding of reality.

Khorne is a god of warriors. Therefore, to draw worshippers he must embody the aspects that appeal to warriors. Things like martial glory, honour and strenght. There are also sources saying that Khorne doesn't like it when warriors kill those weaker than themselves. Altough this is countered by sources saying that "Khorne does not care whence the blood flows, as long as it does". I think that since Khorne is a god, it is fully possible for him to represent both aspects at the same time.

Nurgle draws worshippers from the rejected and the desperate. He must embody aspects that appeal to the downtrodden and, therefore, he represents aspects like acceptance, tolerance and love.

Tzeentch is the god of scholars and revolutionaries. His worshippers are idealistic visionaries. They seek to gain knowledge or to change the established order of things. They are drawn to Tzeentch as he represents knowledge, change and the making of grand schemes and plans.

Slaanesh's worshippers are perfectionists, hedonists, thrill-seekers. Perfection, pleasure, getting a kick, pushing your limits. Those are the things about Slaanesh that attract worshipers.

The original source for 'positive aspects', Slaves to Darkness, says that when some Khornate warriors started killing babies, Khorne got upset with them because there were actual fighters just outside and they should be killing them first - not instead, just first.

As I see it (borrowing wording from other posters in the thread)

Nurgle: Acceptance, Life
Khorne: Martial glory
Slaanesh: Pride (though a vice), Perfection, Pleasure
Tzeentch: Hope, Knowledge

The aspects of Chaos are the perversion of the virtues they draw upon.

That's it.

Whoever told you they were also the representation of those virtues is getting some odd information. If GW ever wrote that in as canon I would probably just disregard, as that would be dumb.

But....

I guess the 'positive' could figuratively be reduced to the lies being spun though and categorized to each chaos power.


Sometimes I do overthink things.... so the latter is probably what the OP meant?

Iron_Captain wrote:Khorne is a god of warriors. Therefore, to draw worshippers he must embody the aspects that appeal to warriors. Things like martial glory, honour and strenght. There are also sources saying that Khorne doesn't like it when warriors kill those weaker than themselves. Altough this is countered by sources saying that "Khorne does not care whence the blood flows, as long as it does". I think that since Khorne is a god, it is fully possible for him to represent both aspects at the same time.

of sch.

Maybe. I think that fundamentally those things are not separate aspects. Khorne can present as being a god of honor or pride, but when his worshippers structure their lives around martial honor they eventually have nothing left but giving death, dying, and being invoked by vengeful comrades who themselves kill and die unendingly.

kveldulf wrote:The aspects of Chaos are the perversion of the virtues they draw upon.

That's it.

Whoever told you they were also the representation of those virtues is getting some odd information. If GW ever wrote that in as canon I would probably just disregard, as that would be dumb.

But....

I guess the 'positive' could figuratively be reduced to the lies being spun though and categorized to each chaos power.


Sometimes I do overthink things.... so the latter is probably what the OP meant?

Yes, the nicest things about the gods are the delusions that people submit to to justify the first acts of evil. Eventually they can believe that the only good in the universe is whichever vice their God propagates.

Actually, I think you have it backwards. Most religions are not evil themselves, but people with evil intentions will call on religion to justify... whatever it is they already want to do.

The base, fallen part of human nature urges humans to commit evil acts. Most current major religions aim to promote the higher aspirations of the soul - honesty, charity, kindness and the like.

To lie, cheat, steal, torture and murder isn't a part of most successful religions. If a religion promoted violent, selfish behavior the civil authorities wouldn't tolerate it. Civil authorities are notorious for enforcing law and order to foster stability and commerce. Greedy, selfish, violent religions don't mesh with the aims of power elites. Moreover, people just wouldn't follow such a faith unless it offered common, everyday worshippers tangible rewards like power and wealth.

Even faiths at have descended to horrors like self mutilation and human sacrifice typically did so on a small scale and in a way that ensured the safety of the vast majority of the populace. The most notable exception, the Aztecs, relied on taking captives from neighbors to fuel their blood orgies. Their own citizens were generally exempt.

As partners grow similar in a long-term marriage, so too culture and faith become deeply intertwined with the passage of time. That's why global religions like Christianity and Islam develop distinct regional flavors in not only their aesthetics and worship style but in their beliefs and dogma.

Yet it is foolish to blame religion for the deep-seated beliefs and practices of any people. Far more often tyrants and madmen will pressure religious authorities to support their peculiar brand of hate, fear and destruction.

Since modern religions rely on 'soft' power (persuasion, popular support, money) instead of 'hard' power (force, law) a ruthless group with guns usually gets at least lip service from religious authorities. The response of the Vatican to the Facist/Nazi regimes in WWII is a perfect example. That doesn't make religions evil, only human. Which makes sense since they're run by humans.

Regardless of the teachings of a religion's founders, over time religions evolve to match their environment. A group constantly faced with survival challenges tends to either become militant or very passive/adaptive in order to continue to exist.

As an example, Judaism in Roman through pre-Rennaissance Western Europe evolved to be low-profile. They did work no one else in society would do (banking, for example, since charging interest was considered a sin for contemporary Christians). They congregated in Jewish sub-communities (ghettos) to maintain what they could of their culture and religion, and generally kept to themselves. But being both wealthy and different, when the local nobility ran short of cash they tended to persecute local Jewry and (not coincidentally) confiscate their wealth and property. At which point the Jewish population tended to move to a more hospitable (for now) area rather than fight back.

The alternative example is ISIS. Born from a Sunni minority that was persecuted by the Shiia government in Baghdad, and to a lesser extent by the Alawite regime in Damascus, they fought back with extreme prejudice against their oppressors (real or perceived), dragging the Kurds, Yezidis, Christians, Jews and others in because they were also 'not like us'. As often happens this movement is hyper violent because they're responding to a perceived existential threat to their survival.

Hyper-violent movements tend to get annihilated because all their neighbors see them as a threat. Unless they manage to survive and expand, in which case everyone around them is in deep trouble.

All of this is a study in human nature, not religions per se. It has nothing to do with the beliefs, practices and faith of any particular religion. Sociopaths and zealots exist in every culture, and always will try to co-opt religion to support their dysfunctional creeds if they can. If religious authorities resist a sociopathic party that comes to power they tend to get persecuted or annihilated, just as the Nazis did with clergy of all denominations in Europe in WWII. The survivors either submit, flee or go underground.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I hate seeing religions get continuously blamed for the failings of human nature.

Great post Warboss Gorhack! I completely agree.

One thing I would add is that I think it's kind of like mental illness - often these are emotions that are taken to an extreme level, to the point where they are harmful.

For example, a little bit of paranoia can be healthy. Too much paranoia definitely is not. Being hAppy and sad is normal, but chronic depression or manic behaviour is not good.

So therefore Khorne's martial pride would be OK if it wasn't an all consuming desire to kill. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with change, but taken to Tzeentch's extreme it's too much.

Please bear in mind though these are my thoughts, and not taken from official background material.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:


Yet it is foolish to blame religion for the deep-seated beliefs and practices of any people. Far more often tyrants and madmen will pressure religious authorities to support their peculiar brand of hate, fear and destruction.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, however I take issue with this. I would point out that religion has been used as pretext for many of the major conflicts in human history, this effect magnified greatly when we talk about monotheistic religions, specifically the Abrahamic ones. It is impossible to separate the religion from its followers, because without its followers and adherents, the religion can't exist. while a demagogue may set the negative policy into motion, a religion that is complicit in these acts is to be blamed for furthering it or carrying out the negative acts can and should be held accountable for it. Religion is supposed to provide a moral compass for societal values, that is it social role historically across every past human civilization. if it fails to do this or fails to stand up against negative policies and societal action, then it is aiding in the suffering of others. So your assertion that we cannot blame the religion for the actions of its followers if false. If the religion and its dogma embraces and encourages the negative behavior we can certainly blame the religion. I am not referring to the current problem of radical Islam, but more the crusades, inquisition, the many, many religious wars fought between the adherents of specific sects (protestant vs. catholic, Shiite vs. Sunni) and other such actions taken throughout history with the blessing and guidance of its nominal leaders (the Pope, Caliph, synod etc.) The reason I say that is because, while humanity and warfare have been bedfellows since the beginning, religion has done much to drive conflict. I'm not in a position to judge whether the good has out weighed the bad, but you cannot claim that religion is completely innocent of the conflict it has caused.

There are no positive aspects of the Chaos Gods, taken in whole.

Yes, Khorne is a god of "martial pride and honor"... but that is only a very small part of his entire portfolio. That "martial pride and honor" is then driven to the extreme of killing all who stand before you to prove yourself the greatest of warriors, and massacring the weak because if they weren't weak they could stop you; skulls for the Skull Throne.

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows, that people are killing and dying in his name.

Tzeentch? Tzeentch is all about Change. Change your hellhole Hive World into a Utopian Paradise through the gifts and influence of Tzeentch? Tzeentch is going to influence someone to change it back into a Hive World hellhole. Or something else entirely, like an irradiated wasteland filled with mutated barbarian tribes. Change is the only constant in the universe.

Nurgle? Nurgle's personality is of a fat, jovial uncle... but those are not aspects of his portfolio. He loves everything, because everything rots, and he is the god of rot, decay and disease. The doors to his kingdom are wide, and open to all.

Slaanesh is already pretty well covered, but to put a spin on it, his "positive" aspects, the quest for self-improvement and perfection, quite quickly become an obsession, driving away all other concerns... and when you want to be the best at something, you will do anything to attain it. Drugs. Cannibalism. Draining the vital essences from thousands of captured people through means of techno-wizardry.

Those "positive aspects" are the bait on the hooks of the Dark Gods. Once you've taken that bait? You're fethed. More importantly? Your immortal soul is fethed. And the gods care not a whit for you, you are their pawn and slave.

Disclaimer: I'm going to straight up borrow "If the Emperor had a text to speach device" latest episode on youtubes reasoning behind this. I reccomend you watch it for this particular subject. I won't bother going into detail on it here, just have a look at it on youtube.

Nurgle: Nature

Khorne: Survival of the fittest

Tzeentch: Progress/science

Slaanesh: Joy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I've always found the idea that the four chaos gods fundamently represents the four stages of Life the most appealing:

Slaanesh: Birth

Tzeentch: Growth

Nurgle: Decay

Khorne: Death

The biases of the writers of the Text-to-Speech videos are rather apparent, however, so one can disregard most of what they release as a fan-fic.

 Psienesis wrote:
The biases of the writers of the Text-to-Speech videos are rather apparent, however, so one can disregard most of what they release as a fan-fic.

I agree. I wouldn't reccomend the series but the last episode definetly has some good points on this subject.

Slaanesh in no way, shape, or form represents "joy". The only Chaos Gods who have followers that have ever been described as "joyful" are Nurgle, and... uh.... yeah, that's pretty much it (unless you count Chaos Undivided).Nurgle is the only God called upon to love his followers, and his followers are the only ones who ever express actual happiness. Slaaneshi Daemons and Cultists are sense-whores supreme, and leave themselves hollowed-out husks of their former selves. Maybe Khornate warriors express joy in the heat of battle (though I've never heard of it, only rage)? Maybe Tzeentchian Sorcerers express joy when bringing to pass great plans (again, never heard of it, but it's possible)? Slaanesh, on the other hand, brings to pass nothing but desperately seeking after pleasure and sensation for the entirety of your existence, where is the immortal joy in that? Over time, you take less pleasure in certain actions that once delighted you. When you've been around for millenia, you've done everything, and the only way to find pleasure again is in the most esoteric and painful of ways.

 dusara217 wrote:
Slaanesh in no way, shape, or form represents "joy". The only Chaos Gods who have followers that have ever been described as "joyful" are Nurgle, and... uh.... yeah, that's pretty much it (unless you count Chaos Undivided).Nurgle is the only God called upon to love his followers, and his followers are the only ones who ever express actual happiness. Slaaneshi Daemons and Cultists are sense-whores supreme, and leave themselves hollowed-out husks of their former selves. Maybe Khornate warriors express joy in the heat of battle (though I've never heard of it, only rage)? Maybe Tzeentchian Sorcerers express joy when bringing to pass great plans (again, never heard of it, but it's possible)? Slaanesh, on the other hand, brings to pass nothing but desperately seeking after pleasure and sensation for the entirety of your existence, where is the immortal joy in that? Over time, you take less pleasure in certain actions that once delighted you. When you've been around for millenia, you've done everything, and the only way to find pleasure again is in the most esoteric and painful of ways.

Actually I was mistaken. I recently re-watched the episode and it wasn't "joy" but rather "freedom" or "freedom of expression" to be precise. So the list would be:

Nurgle: Nature

Khorne: Survival of the fittest

Tzeentch: Progress/science

Slaanesh: Freedom/expression

Slaanesh is all about S&M, bondage, decadence, Rock and Roll, COCAINE!!, Heavy Metal. Don't listen to all these polite answers about feelings and emotions and expression.

Check out 1D4 Chan (NSFW) and look up Doomrider and Slaanesh for more positive aspects

They're smarter than the Imperium.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Slaanesh is all about S&M, bondage, decadence, Rock and Roll, COCAINE!!, Heavy Metal. Don't listen to all these polite answers about feelings and emotions and expression.

Check out 1D4 Chan (NSFW) and look up Doomrider and Slaanesh for more positive aspects

1d4 chan and by extension GW have no concept of the intricate subtlety and depth of joy that can be achieved through bondage and S&M.

I know right? That's where the modding community comes in with greenstuff, latex and bucket load of PVA

heh heh heh...

All of the Chaos gods and the aspects they represent are mostly about the apparent vices- Khorne is the god that's ll about rampant slaughter, driven by madness. Tzeench is seeking knowledge for whatever purposes.

All virtues are accompanied by two vices- excess and deficiency. Chaos's aspects are merely one vice. In the lore, pride, ambition and a view of equality among equals are driving factors towards many who turn to Chaos because they don't see such in their real worlds. Wanting wrongs righted isn't a bad thing, but most people who follow Chaos naturally follow down the narrative of turning insane or losing themselves to achieve their goals. So you get this "live under Imperium thumb" vs "go all out and be branded heretics and lose yourself to Chaos" dichotomy.

Really both opposites are really just different sides of the same coin of madness. You got the Imperium wallowing in decadence and corruption and trying to preserve itself, and you got Chaos trying to overthrow all of that by violent subversion. That's the very essence of Warhammer fluff. Both sides will see the other as in the wrong and justify themselves as the avenging righters of justice, though both are willing to let whole worlds burn. Your freedom fighter is my terrorist, etc etc.

Well its been said by some that the emperor also; by technicality, is considered a chaos God. He is the embodiment of Order.

So you could take order as good and bad. Cause I'm sure the Nazis had an idea of what order is too...

This is a little of topic: Lately I've seen speculations as to if that was his plan all along. Realising he couldn't starve the chaos gods to death he had to become one. I kind of don't support this and I'm sure he didn't intend to be mortally crippled while on the throne. Also he litteraly eats around 1000psykers every day.

All of the gods have positive aspects, and they are probably what drives most people into the arms of said gods initially.
The ruinous powers are manifestations of raw emotions. Pure and unadulterated, without any concept of morality, they encompass both the good and bad sides.

In that sense, Khorne is as much about honour and respect as he is about mindless bloodshed and pure violence. Sorcerers are seen as weak and cowardly because of how they borrow power from their god rather than use their own power of mind to enforce their will on the warp and command it like a psyker would. In other words they are puppets to their masters, whereas Khorne rewards those who have the strength to enforce their dreams and goals by themselves. He and his followers can genuinely respect their foe if they deem them worthy adversaries.

The thing about the gods is that they are devoid of restraint, and are are driven to survive and empower themselves. Khorne was formed by the endless amount of bloodshed and war over the aeons. Borne from conflict in its many forms. Either from twisted mad max-esque raiders or the righteous saving a kingdom from tyranny. And of those emotions that go with it. So Martial Glory, honour and all that make up part of what khorne is. But first and foremost it is the blood lust and a certain rage that all combatants perceive in one form or another. Except in the case of Khorne it is without restraint. So if you were to give your self fully to the will of khorne, all vestiges of humanity are stripped away and you are left with a hunger for battle, killing and destroying for the sheer sake of it. Ironically making you a puppet of Khorne in the process lol.

Though even the good aspects become twisted the closer to your god you become. You might start fighting to become stronger in order to protect, like just about any hero. But eventually you abandon whatever cause you had and just seek the challenge. Just like it becomes not enough to win, you have to utterly destroy your foe for a complete victory.