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I'm just starting out in wargaming, and I thought I'd build a few army lists using Battlescribe. My favorite so far is my Blood Ravens army (Dawn of War was my first exposure to the 40k universe). Just wondering how viable it actually is. I built it as a CAD. I plan to use the Ultramarines chapter tactics. The only models I've purchased so far are the Captain, Librarian, Dreadnought, and one Tac Squad.

HQ:
Captain (130pts)
Artificer Armour
Power Sword
Storm Bolter

Librarian (120pts) (Blood Ravens, so this is pretty much manditory) - Biomancy focused
Terminator Armour
Force Stave
Storm Bolter
Mastery Level 2

Elites:

Command Squad (135pts)
Apothecary
Company Champion (Power Sword)
Veteran x3 (Boltgun and Chainsword on each)
Transport: Rhino

Dreadnought (125pts)
Missile Launcher
TL Lascannon

Troops:
Tactical Squad (215pts) x3
10-man unit
Plasma Gun
Sergeant: Combi-plasma and Power Sword
Transport: Rhino

One squad gets Missile Launcher (w/ Flakk missiles) (+35pts)

Heavy Support:
Devastator Squad (240 pts)
10-man squad
4x Plasma Cannon
Armorium Cherub
Sergeant : Boltgun and Chainsword

Stormraven (200pts)
Stormstrike Missiles
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-melta

Fast Attack:
Stormtalon (115pts) x2
Skyhammer Missile Launcher
TL Assault Cannon

Thoughts? Criticisms? How many round will it take me to lose with this force?

Don't take power sword on sergeant, especially the ones taking combi plasma. I would rather save those points to put plasma guns or melta guns on your command squad.

If you really want to get melee weapons on those Tac sarge with combi weapons, Lightning Claw is better pick.

Looks pretty decent.
Don't take Plasma Cannons on the Devs, Gets Hot! is brutal sometimes and small blasts aren't all that great anymore, Lascannons are pretty good though, and Grav Cannons can do some work. Also, your captain's loadout isn't doing much for him.
Stock power swords aren't that impressive on a Captain. Maybe consider giving him something like a Relic Blade or the Burning Blade? Then throw a Storm Shield on him and he's got some durability. Welcome to Dakka, and to the Space Marines!

 War Kitten wrote:
Looks pretty decent.
Don't take Plasma Cannons on the Devs, Gets Hot! is brutal sometimes and small blasts aren't all that great anymore, Lascannons are pretty good though, and Grav Cannons can do some work. Also, your captain's loadout isn't doing much for him.
Stock power swords aren't that impressive on a Captain. Maybe consider giving him something like a Relic Blade or the Burning Blade? Then throw a Storm Shield on him and he's got some durability. Welcome to Dakka, and to the Space Marines!

What are you talking about? Plasma Cannons are awesome

Thank you for the feedback. I pulled the power swords off of pretty much everyone (Except the champion) and used the points the upgrade my captain with a Relic Blade and Storm Shield. I also threw a couple combi-meltas on two of the Veterans (And I forgot to mention that the Command Squad also has a company standard).

My thinking on the plasma cannons for my Devs is that I want them to be more of a quick-strike heavy unit killer rather than a vehicle kill squad. I plan to keep them in reserve with my flyers and airdrop them along with my Dread right next to an objective to wreck shop. Grav guns and lascannons seemed too expensive for that. Am I wrong in this thinking?

 EnTyme wrote:
Thank you for the feedback. I pulled the power swords off of pretty much everyone (Except the champion) and used the points the upgrade my captain with a Relic Blade and Storm Shield. I also threw a couple combi-meltas on two of the Veterans (And I forgot to mention that the Command Squad also has a company standard).

My thinking on the plasma cannons for my Devs is that I want them to be more of a quick-strike heavy unit killer rather than a vehicle kill squad. I plan to keep them in reserve with my flyers and airdrop them along with my Dread right next to an objective to wreck shop. Grav guns and lascannons seemed too expensive for that. Am I wrong in this thinking?

Er, good thinking of dropping Dev squad in from Stormraven. But I am afraid Plasma Cannon just cannot do that job for you, you are not relentless outside Skyhammer formation (unless you get endurance from your Libby), so you are snap firing when your heavy weapon wielder moved, in terms of plasma cannon, they cannot fire at all the turn they come in. I propose you to proxy those plasma cannon as Grav cannons, though salvo type only fire at half range with less shots when wielder moved, it is still able to fire at full BS, and 12 grav cannon shot would just be enough to kill nasty things like a WK unless they get 4+ or better cover.

Welcome to Dakka,

You might want to look into formations. You are pretty close to to a demi company, and have the stormwing. Makes it harder to fit in the librarian, but if you bring two more you have a conclave.

I’d mix up your tac squads a bit. One with melta, one with plasma, maybe a flamer. I like the heavy in a full squad as well, but they have fallen out of fashion. Flack missiles are an AA choice of last resort. MLs are already overpriced, and it adds on to that for a small chance to scratch the pain on a flyer. You’d got plenty of air cover, save the points.

If you are going to air drop a dev squad, PCs are the worst choice, as you can’t snap fire them. Grav is expensive, but the best on the move. You might want to consider multimeltas. If you are going to drop on someone’s doorstep, the range isn’t an issue. Frankly, you would be better off tucked in a ruins somewhere. I’m not a huge fan of PCs in general, mine tend to disappoint.

With Dreads having 4 attacks, I like to keep the fist these days. If you are kicking it out of the raven next to an objective, you might need the CC power. I think the assault cannon might serve you better in this role as well, as once again range shouldn’t be an issue. (modeling note: the arms should stay tight on the pegs without glue, so the dread is an easy weapon swap without magnets, in case you change your mind)

The command squad should be able to use full melta guns, rather then combis. This IIRC is one of the few things in the FAQ.

Again, thank you all for the feedback.

Now that I think about it, I'm probably just trying to force a heavy weapon into my Tac Squads just because I can. I could definitely use those points somewhere else. Not really sure what I was thinking with the dread's loadout. Probably just "Wow! This model looks cool with a big laser and a missile launcher!" It's a Dreadnought. It would look cool with a box of chocolates and a bouquet of roses. I definitely agree that the power fist will serve my purposes better. I'll probably switch the Lascannon out for a multi-melta just so he fits in better with his (now melta-squad) Devastator buddies.

The only reason I went with a CAD instead of a GSF is because I really want a place for that Librarian, and the Conclave ends up a little bit too expensive, even if I left the two space Libbies with a default loadout. Now that I've read some more of the rules, I don't see anything that says I can't just say "Here's a space wizard in holy armor. Enjoy ". He just won't benefit from the extra uses of my Combat Doctrine.

So based on all of your feedback, here is the updated list (Now a Gladius Strike Force):


Librarian (120pts) (Blood Ravens, so this is pretty much manditory) - Biomancy focused
Terminator Armour
Force Stave
Storm Bolter
Mastery Level 2

Battle Demi Company:
Captain (155pts)
Artificer Armour
Relic
Storm Bolter

Command Squad (155pts)
Apothecary
Company Champion (Power Sword)
Veteran x3 (Two Meltaguns and a Company Standard, 3 Chainswords)

Assault Squad (120pts)
5-man unit
Jump Packs
2 Flamers
Sergeant (Combat Shield, Melta Bombs, Power Axe)

Tactical Squad(200pts)
10-man unit
Plasma Gun
Sergeant: Combi-plasma and Chain Sword
Transport: Rhino

Tactical Squad (195pts)
10-man unit
Melta Gun
Sergeant: Combi-melta and Chain Sword
Transport: Rhino

Tactical Squad (190pts)
10-man unit
Flamer
Sergeant: Combi-Flamer and Chain Sword
Transport: Rhino

Devastator Squad (185 pts)
10-man squad
4x Multi-melta
Sergeant : Boltgun and Chainsword, Melta Bombs

Dreadnought (100pts)
Power Fist/Storm Bolter
Multi-melta

Storm Wing:

Stormraven (200pts)
Stormstrike Missiles
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-melta

Stormtalon (115pts) x2
Skyhammer Missile Launcher
TL Assault Cannon

Looks pretty good.

While it’s OK by the rules to just tack on a spare HQ, it does make your list unbound. Which some people have a problem with. Not for list like this, where you are adding a little bit extra for fluff and fun, but there are some abusive things you can do with it. Not that there aren’t abusive things you can do with formations, but unbound has a bad rep in a lot of circles. Just a head’s up.

TLLC/ML was one of my favorite dread loads in the last few editions. Sit back somewhere, preferably in cover, and pepper shots downrange. Good fire support load. But that was when they only had 2A base. These days with 4, they really want to mix it up and crump some heads. Especially when you are doing an aggressive air drop (or pods)

Does the command squad have a transport? You might want to consider putting them in the raven, rather then the Devs.

Never pay points for a storm bolter. The advantages they have over a normal bolter these days are minute. If you are going to run him with the command squad, a c-melta would be a better call. Or a SS to tank wounds.

Do the Devs need to be a full 10 man squad?

 Nevelon wrote:
Looks pretty good.

Does the command squad have a transport? You might want to consider putting them in the raven, rather then the Devs.

Never pay points for a storm bolter. The advantages they have over a normal bolter these days are minute. If you are going to run him with the command squad, a c-melta would be a better call. Or a SS to tank wounds.

Do the Devs need to be a full 10 man squad?

The lack of a transport for my command squad is a concern. I just ran out of points. The Dev squad doesn't have to be a 10-man. I just liked the idea of being able to combat squad them, and the spare firepower seems handy. My Captain does have a SS, I just forgot to list it. I may play around with dropping my Devs to a 5-man and using the spare points to put my HQs and Command Squad back in a Rhino (and switching the SB out for a combi-melta)

*Edit for atrocities committed against the English language*

I've decided that I no longer want to use my Librarian as unbound, so that basically means I will need to either put him in a Conclave, or drop him all together. I was looking through the SM formations last night when I came across the Reclusiam Command Squad. I like the composition here, and the reroll seems handy if you plan on moving the Command Squad into melee. I think I could find room for one of those if I decided to leave the Librarian out. The question, then, is which way do I go: pick up two more Librarians (probably more appropriate for Blood Ravens) and drop the Command Squad I currently have in the list, or drop my Terminator Librarian and change the Command Squad to a Reclusiam.

Anyone with experience running either formation able to shed some light on how they play? The only models I currently own are a Captain, a Terminator Librarian, a Tac Squad, a Dreadnought, one Rhino, and a Stormraven, so I'm not yet so invested that I can't make changes.

Reclusion command squad is, talking in Star Wars language, a Bantha Herder.

Unplayable to say the least.

Speaking of Unbound army organization, it's considered a bad attitude and not competitive style. If you want to go Unbound, your opponent may too, and that will inevitably lead to some OP units spam and generally unhealthy gameplay.

Surprised your Lib doesn't have a Storm Shield. This is a mandatory upgrade if you want him to live.

Think about your gameplan - how are you going to kill your opponent, how to deliver HtH squads in combat, and take your picks accordingly. You have a bunch of squads that are not going anywhere like CommSquad and Dreadnought.
You can't charge when you disembark from Rhino. If you want your CommSquad to be there and fight, stick it into Storm Raven. It is an assault vehicle, meaning you can charge as soon as you disembark.

Also a tip : there is zero need to take 10-man squads unless you want to Combat Squad them, roll around with 5-man having special and Combi weapon and the other 5-man to back them up with heavy weapon.
Devastators too can capitalize on Rhino's 2 fire points. There is no need for them to take precisely 4 Heavy Weapons.

That's kind of what I'd heard about Reclusians, cabal. I was just curious to hear from some people that may have actually used them. I definitely like the idea of the Librarius Conclave for a Blood Ravens unit (for the few that don't know the chapter, they are known for having a VERY high number of powerful Psykers. Also rampant kleptomania). I actually planned on putting my Devastators in the Storm Raven along with the Dreadnought. Here is the list I'm looking at now:

Battle Demi Company:

Captain (145pts)
Artificer Armour
Relic Blade
Combi-grav

Assault Squad (115pts)
5-man unit
Jump Packs
2 Flamers
Sergeant (Combat Shield, Power Axe)

Tactical Squad(200pts) x3
10-man unit
Plasma Gun
Sergeant: Combi-plasma and Chain Sword
Transport: Rhino

Devastator Squad (125 pts)
5-man squad
Armorium Cherub
4x Multi-melta
Sergeant : Combi-Melta and Chainsword, Melta bomb

Dreadnought (110pts)
Power Fist/Storm Bolter
Auto-Cannon (I believe in playing what you build, and for some reason, the Dreadnought kit doesn't include the standard load-out. Thanks, GW!)

Librarius Conclave:

Librarian (125pts )
Terminator Armour
Force Stave
Storm Shield
Mastery Level 2

Librarian (90 pts)
Bolt Pistol
Force Stave
Mastery Level 2

Librarian (105 pts)
Plasma Pistol
Force Axe
Mastery Level 2

Storm Wing:

Stormraven (200pts)
Stormstrike Missiles
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-melta

Stormtalon (115pts) x2
Skyhammer Missile Launcher
TL Assault Cannon

I would give one Librarian Biomancy spells, one Divination, and one Pyromancy. I do intend to combat squad the Tacticals. As I said, the Devastators and Dreadnought would be in the Stormraven. The only question now is to whom do I attach the Captain? Maybe the Dev squad? I could swap out his combi-grav for a combi-melta and he'd fit right in. Are you allowed to start the game with your Warlord in reserve? Hell, maybe I could make the Terminator Librarian my warlord.

Sure you can have Warlord in reserve, why not.

Plasma pistol on Libby will kill him much more times than you think. I'd recommend you to avoid it,

For psychic powers, Pyromancy is just straight bad. Telepathy and it's infamous Invisibility is the sole best power in the world. Divination may have some useful stuff too,

There is no need to pack Devs in Storm Raven. They are better served with couple of ranges weapons somewhere in the backyard.

You have Assault squad to complement your HQ choices and stick in Storm Raven, if you don't take jump packs. But that's a bunch of points stuck in reserve, though.

You know, I've seen Assault Marines with Jetpacks in absolutely everything. I've never even considered not giving them Jetpacks, but that would free up 15 points right there. The idea has always been to load those Devs into the Raven and drop them and their multi-meltas off right next to the enemy's prized tank. Don't really see why I can't have them pick off said tank from across the board with Lascannons, though. Doing it this way, it would probably be best to leave the Dev Sergeant with his basic bolter in case something gets close enough to make the squad nervous. I still have a few points to play with this way.

Okay, so now I'm playing around with the idea of using 2 Demi-companies and dropping the Librarian again. Having all those Razorbacks for free seems really enticing.

Battle Demi Company A:

Captain (150 pts)
Jump Pack
Artificer Armour
Power Sword
Combi-Flamer

Assault Squad (95 pts)
5-man unit
Jump Packs
2 Flamers
Sergeant (Chainsword and Bolt Pistol)

Tactical Squad (95 pts) x3
5-man unit
Plasma Gun
Sergeant: Combi-plasma and Chain Sword
Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Devastator Squad (150 pts)
5-man squad
4x Lascannon
Sergeant : Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Dreadnought (110pts)
Power Fist/Storm Bolter
Auto-Cannon

Battle Demi Company B:

Chaplain (115 pts)
Jump Pack
Crozius Arcanum
Combi-Flamer

Assault Squad (95 pts)
5-man unit
Jump Packs
2 Flamers
Sergeant (Chainsword and Bolt Pistol)

Tactical Squad(95 pts) x3
5-man unit
Grav Gun
Sergeant: Combi-grav and Chain Sword
Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Devastator Squad (110 pts)
5-man squad
4x Multi-Melta
Sergeant : Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Storm Wing:

Stormraven (200pts)
Stormstrike Missiles
TL Lascannon
TL Multi-melta

Stormtalon (115pts) x2
Skyhammer Missile Launcher
TL Assault Cannon

This feels like a more balanced force. It comes out to 1825 points, so I may throw a Storm Shield on the Captain (his Iron Halo gives him a 4+ invuln, so I'm not even sure if increasing that by +1 is even worth 15 points). I'm using a web-based army builder to calculate the points right now, so they may be off a bit. Attach my command units to the assault squads and stick the Captain's squad in the Storm Raven with a Dreadnought hanging off the back. The Chaplain and his squad can jump around like House of Pain.

If you are going with the free transports, keeping the assaults on foot is very tempting. You free up points from the jump packs (for the HQs as well) and get an extra razor.

If you are going with a chaplain on foot, with a c-flamer, and have the good luck to be playing with Ultramarine tactics, get Cassius. He’s a beast.

Any points you can shake free should probably go to upgrading the guns on the razors.

That's definitely something I've considered, Nevelon. I'd get 60 points back if I pulled the jetpacks off my assaults and HQs. That's three more TL Lascannons for my Razorbacks! The only things that are stopping me really are:
1. That's another Razorback model I have to buy, and this list is already getting expensive (The codex says they're free, but my FLGS disagrees).
2. Assault Marines without jump packs feel like Tactical Marines without boltguns.
3. I feel like I'm limiting the mobility of the Assault Squads by taking away the jump packs. Sure, they can just re-embark (if that's not a word, it is now) on their transports, but that slows them down, and it would require me to keep the Stormwing formation close to the Captain's squad and in hover mode as opposed to my current plan of having it drop them off near an objective and then proceed to wreck shop.

The last point is the main reason I think I'll keep the jump packs. I'm not really wanting to use the Razorbacks for their offensive power, I'm wanting to use them more as transports/cover/LoS blockesr which are still able to provide a little dakka. The TL Heavy Bolters will do that job just fine.

I hear you about the “free” razorbacks. While the full company list might be competitive, you need a lot of metal boxes (or pods) to pull it off. For a more casual player I think you would get a better dollar-to-fun return on your hobby budget by picking up a more varied assortment of kits. Transports are a boring, but necessary part of marine lists, and the full company really doubles down on them.

The 2xFlamer squad should feel like tacs, as that is how they will play. Just like a 5 man squad with a flamer/c-flamer sarge, just you get to keep shooting the combi. You get less bolter shots (particularly at range) but the advantage of charging into CC if you want. I’ve had good experiences with them in a pod, razor would be a little rougher on them. But if you rushed forward and popped smoke on the first turn, you should have plenty of targets for them.

I also like the mobility of the JPs. I also like them because it keeps the squad mobile and effective without using one of my transports. My collection is limited to 3 pods and 3 rhinos/razors. So from a practical POV, I often don’t have enough transports for as many units as I’d like. But the full company list requires a lot of target saturation. Each individual part is very fragile, but you put a ton of them on the table. You want to spam and spam hard. From a competitive POV I think you would get more milage out of two more razors then the extra mobility granted by the JPs. YMMV. It should play fine either way. With that many boxes on the table, there should be plenty of cover for them to advance behind.

I appreciate the feedback, Nevelon. I'm looking forward to getting this army up and running (working in the Storm Raven right now). As far as tactics, I'm looking at Ultramarines right now. I think Iron Hands may be a little more useful from a min/max standpoint (it's a pretty mech-heavy army so far and I plan to eventually add an Armored Task Force to use in the Apocalypse games is see fairly regularly in my area), but it doesn't really fit the Blood Ravens lore. I'm still holding out hope they get some official rules from geedubs eventually (replace any HQ choice with a Librarian and bonus to Seize the Initiative rolls would seem appropriate to me).

Another thing I forgot to add:

If you are going with a c-flamer on your captain, (which I’m not sure I’d recommend, as it doesn’t take advantage of his BS and costs him an attack in CC. Does fit with the squad though) take a lightning claw (or relic blade, points allowing) instead of the sword. If you are not going to get the extra attack for the power weapon/bolt pistol, might as well get shred from the claw, or the +2S from the relic.

As an aside, this is one of the perks of Cassius. He gets the c-flamer (and a fancy one at that) plus he gets to keep his bolt pistol.

Ah, crap! I never thought about the combi-flamer not counting as a melee weapon! I think I'd rather have the +1 attack than the shooting. I may actually pull the flamers off the Assault squads anyway. I want them as CC unts.

 EnTyme wrote:
Ah, crap! I never thought about the combi-flamer not counting as a melee weapon! I think I'd rather have the +1 attack than the shooting. I may actually pull the flamers off the Assault squads anyway. I want them as CC unts.

For the basic assault marine, it’s worth the drop in the attack. He’s hitting with S4 and no AP anyway. The flamer is going to be an automatic hit, rather then having to worry about WS vs. your target, so either a 3+ or 4+, and probably the later. So as long as you can hit one guy in the shooting phase, you are better off. And you have the potential to get more front loaded hits, which offsets the lack of attacks in subsequent rounds. Even if charged, you get the wall of death hits in. Now it can be a drawback if you are going for a long charge, as if you are just in the tip of flamer range, you might shoot yourself out of charge range, or if you are outside the template completely. But generally you have the mobility to get close, burn, and then pile in.

For the characters, giving up the attack is more critical. You generally have good stats and a power weapon. The attack lost is not just a WS4, S4, AP- slap from a trooper. I can understand the desire for a decent gun, to use the BS of the captain. In certain circumstances, like riding down with a combi-melta sternguard squad, I can see it. But for the most part, I prefer to keep them as dedicated CC beatsticks.