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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So I find myself being rather fond of assault marines, tactical marines, devastators, tactical terminators, and dreadnaughts. I love the idea of having dedicated heavy weapon guys blasting apart vehicles from afar while my superhuman assault marines rocket in to clean up the infantry. I like the idea of tactical marines bringing supporting fire that's a cut above the average trooper's. I like the idea of havin tac marines deepstrike in and smash stuff with their power fists. I like having a squad of dreads to bully units with their newly-improved number of attacks.

Unfortunately, I know these options are often considered subpar. Any tips on how to use formations or chapter tactics to pull off a list that includes such elements? And not in the "take naked marines to get free transports" sense.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I know I run my dreadnaughts a good deal and when I run them I always go with them being in separate squads. I dont like squading up vehicles because it limits their movement and makes them a juicier target for enemy fire. I also reccomend taking Ironclad dreads as they bring a great deal more pain as well as being far more survivable as they go from 12 to 13 armor.

If you want to use terminators in force I would suggest the first company strike force. Gives them a few extra goodies.

Cheap assault marines squads with dual flamers could be some nice crowd clearers.

Devastators in the backfield could lay down impressive amounts of supporting fire for their brothers if you wanted. Hell you could even put a squad in a rhino and have that squad have two heavy weapons so they can fire out the top hatch with relative safety.

Tacticals I get a lot of mileage out of by combat squading 10 of them into the same rhino. One takes a special weapon with combi weapon sarge and the other 5 takes 1 heavy weapon. Adds some versatility to the squad and allows the special weapon squad to disembark while the heavy weapon guys stay inside the rhino to lay down fire.

If you do go mass bolters and devastators strongly considering imperial fist chapter tactics. Re-rolling 1s to hit adds up the dice and the tank hunters on devs can be a huge.

 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





A battle demi-company with Ultramarines chapter tactics makes these "subpar" units pretty good. You probably won't have a super competitive list, but it's fun and very flexible.

   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Assault marines are a bully unit. Find someone weaker then you, take their lunch money. Duel flamers, power sword on a vet sarge. JP or in a pod, list depending. To get more milage out of them, attach a HQ. Preferably a force multiplier like a chaplain or a librarian. They might not be the MVP of the game, but generally can get their points back, or at least disrupt things enough in the backfield to take some pressure off the rest of your force.

Tac marines are decent. Some chapter tactics are better for them then others. Ultramarine doctrines or bolter drill let you put a respectable number of hits in things that act like troops. Obviously they are not going to be taking down monsters or deathstars, but with massed fire, or application of special/heavy weapons, they might be able to pull a wound or to off.

Devs are not bad for getting heavy weapons to the table. 5 men, 4 LCs, hide in cover/ruins/buildings/etc. While not broken, they are solid.

Tac terminators are in a rough spot. It’s not easy to leverage their strenghts, but their weakness are fairly profound. Keep them away from massed small arms, and AP2 stuff, but close enough to charge things with the powerfists. They can’t put out enough stormbolter fire to really matter, while the one gun upgrade may or may not make a difference. I think a 5 man squad, With either a AsC or a HF, and a chainfist or two makes an OK unit. Flamer only if you are running teleport homers or locator beacons. Ig you add them to a 1st company TF, they make a OK 3rd unit to fill points. Sure, another pod of sternguard would probably do better for the points, but that would require assembling another darn pod. And you can probably pick up some terminators for peanuts (cash wise). Once again, never going to be the MVP of the game, but if treated with care, you can get some use out of them. Just don’t buy into their fluff, they are not that tough; treating them as such will just piss the squad away.


Dreads are on the fragile side with their AV, but in a list with decent armor saturation, they can survive. As with just about everything, you need to be careful with it. Try to keep it out of LOS of AV stuff, locked in CC with low S troops, etc. I like an assault cannon and a powerfist with a HF. Doing OK for me.


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

Pretty much what Nevelon said. I would personally rather not take Tac Terminators, as I've found that they just don't do enough to make their points back. I personally prefer Assault Terminators, but I can understand that you might want to use the Tac Termies. In which case take Nevelon's advice, it's probably the best way to use them.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






I use all of those units all the time.

Tac squads are my main objective grabbers; 10-man squads with special and heavy, heavies are either plasma cannons or heavy bolters, specials run the gamut but are mostly plasma gun if moving and grav if stationary.

Assault squads just get a powerfist and combat shield on the sgt. They are used as counter-assault for objective campers.

Devs get 4 lascannons.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I use all of those units all the time.

Tac squads are my main objective grabbers; 10-man squads with special and heavy, heavies are either plasma cannons or heavy bolters, specials run the gamut but are mostly plasma gun if moving and grav if stationary.

Assault squads just get a powerfist and combat shield on the sgt. They are used as counter-assault for objective campers.

Devs get 4 lascannons.


How do the Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters work for you? I've always run Missile Launchers, but I was considering expanding into some of the other Heavy Weapon choices.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Don't see the point of the combat shield, a 6 plus invul is a waste.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

War Kitten wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I use all of those units all the time.

Tac squads are my main objective grabbers; 10-man squads with special and heavy, heavies are either plasma cannons or heavy bolters, specials run the gamut but are mostly plasma gun if moving and grav if stationary.

Assault squads just get a powerfist and combat shield on the sgt. They are used as counter-assault for objective campers.

Devs get 4 lascannons.


How do the Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters work for you? I've always run Missile Launchers, but I was considering expanding into some of the other Heavy Weapon choices.


Speaking for myself, I dislike PCs in general, and especially on tac squads. You are often on the move, so the no snap fire thing is big. And they are expensive. Against skilled foes who can space properly, you are often not going to hit more then one guy. And if you are only getting one, might as well take a ML/LC.

MLs I find lackluster as well, but generally take a few purely on nostalgia. But I regret every frag missile I send downrange. And if just shooting kracks, why not take the LC?

I like HBs on tac squads with flamers, and sometimes on plasma squads. Generally shooting troops, so they mesh well. Multiple shots, so even when they snap you might get lucky. They cost peanuts, so it’s not like I’m investing a lot of points in a heavy I might not be getting the most of.

One of the Tac squads that sees the table a lot in my lists is full melta. MM/M, c-melta sarge. When I click off a doctrine, they get some solid hits in, enough to warrant shooting the whole squad at a tank. Frankly in today’s game, you can never have enough AV on the table.

If you have the points, I think grav guns/cannons should work well on tacs. Haven’t had a chance to field test mine yet.

HoundsofDemos wrote:Don't see the point of the combat shield, a 6 plus invul is a waste.


I’ll agree here. While they look cool, a 6++ is just not reliable enough to spend the points on. I’d rather hand out a few extra melta bombs.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You won't ever make Tactical Marines work. The inability to specialize the squad, and having to take only one special and heavy, makes them garbage, pure and simple.

Devastators you camp in ruins to get a good cover save. Lascannons on regular ones, and Grav Cannons on the formation ones where they get Relentless.

Assault Marines you would take under Raven Guard. Take Melta Bombs always. Otherwise, two Flamers and a Drop Pod for a minimum squad.

Terminators are VERY difficult to work with. At most, since I imagine you plan to use multiple squads, take one squad of ten and Combat Squad them so that two CML's are with one squad and the other has 5 Power Fists.

Dreadnoughts are actually okay now since they benefit from Chapter Tactics. Keep them stock for the most part and throw them in a Drop Pod (with a weapon of your choice and a Power Fist) or with two Autocannons or with a Lascannon and ML.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Stitch Counter





The North

I rather like flying in a Storm raven with locator beacon, carrying an ironclad (or in your case standard dreadnought) and a squad of assault OR honour guard.

It's classed as an assault vehicle so your assault troops can disembark and charge, the dreadnought can be dropped into the middle of an enemy unit and terminators deep strike on top without scattering.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've had good luck with tacticals at 5 man units with a special and a combi weapons, usually plasma and grav. Through them in a Rhino and push them onto an objective.
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Can you take a Heavy Flamer in your Tactical Squads?

Flamer/Heavy Flamer or Meltagun/Heavy Flamer can work quite well.

I actually suggest you check out this thread, since Tacs + Assaults + Devs isn't actually that far off building a Battle Sister list, although none of those are quite as good as their Sororitas counterparts.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Only BA can take HF and that's not worth it giving how bad the BA codex is.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Can you take a Heavy Flamer in your Tactical Squads?

Flamer/Heavy Flamer or Meltagun/Heavy Flamer can work quite well.

I actually suggest you check out this thread, since Tacs + Assaults + Devs isn't actually that far off building a Battle Sister list, although none of those are quite as good as their Sororitas counterparts.


Nope. HFs are only on sternguard, LotD, tactical terminators, and a few vehicles. At least for the vanilla codex. I’d love to be able to field them on tacs, but alas.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yeah, heaven forbid Salamanders get access to Heavy Flamers when fire is kinda supposed to be their thing...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's a shame cause the HF would be the heavy weapon that would fit with tacticals the most.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






For all of those units I would probably go with the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics and bring as many HBs as you are comfortable with, as this makes the best of the downside of all of those units; models with bolters. Also I would abuse the crap out of transports and the Combat Squad rule to make the most of things.

As for Assault Squads, I would use them like vultures; once an enemy drops down to around 5 MEQs or 10 GEQs, the Assault Marines come in. Hopefully they can hold off from killing the enemy in 1 turn, last through the enemy's shooting phase, then finish it off in their assault phase and then be ready to pounce in the next turn. Alternatively, give them Eviserators and use them as the melee counterpart to a Lascannon Dev squad; have the sword and gun marines as ablative wounds while the Eviscerator act as the "lascannon" of the group during the charge on MCs or tanks.

For dreadnoughts I would just run them bare minimum. The ranged weapons, unless you decide to go with a Rifleman setup, either don't come in enough numbers to be worth it or are, point for point, less efficient than the baseline Multi-melta. With the MM, you can have the dread go on Anti-tank duty. With an effective range of 30" (6 movement + 24 on the multimelta) you can catch most decently fast vehicles easily and charge after. with 5 attacks on the charge, a successful charge would probably cripple, if not destroy, most enemy tanks. Squads of 2-3 dreads can also effectively deal with heavy infantry (basically anything short of assault terminators) since they pack 10-15 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge and generally are not afraid of most overwatch shooting. This is especially useful against super-happy-funtime units like Ogryns and maybe even TWCs, since you strike before them and cause instant death (TWCs have 3++ but all you need is one failed save to ID them).

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
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Take 1 empty pod, 2 pods with dreads and a Skyhammer Annhialation force.

That's one hell of a brutal alpha strike list.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Imperial fists can have quite decent lazcannon devastators with their tankhunters.
Terminators are fine for casual games.
Dreadnaughts are way better than they used to be with CT and 4 base attacks.
Assault marines are mediocre but can still be fine. You're probably better off with vanguards instead of assault marines.

Or you could go with skyhammer where you get devastators and assault marines actually do stuff. In this case, you could go with ultramarines or white scars. H&R is golden. Don't expect a bunch of assault marines obliterate everything in melee though. And even devastators wiff with their ton of gravs from time to time. But it's a strong formation nevertheless.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/21 05:58:12


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

the_scotsman wrote:
Take 1 empty pod, 2 pods with dreads and a Skyhammer Annhialation force.

That's one hell of a brutal alpha strike list.

That empty pod doesn't even have to be empty. Take a tactical squad with 5 men, a meltagun and a combi-melta in it. Nasty, relatively cheap little suicide anti-tank unit. Use the dreads and Skyhammer as your alpha strike, and let the melta guys clean up a tank afterwards.

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Made in ie
Pete Haines





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You won't ever make Tactical Marines work. The inability to specialize the squad, and having to take only one special and heavy, makes them garbage,


Imo a few exceptions may exist where tactical marines are decent in a CAD. A 5 man squad in a Rhino with a Grav-Cannon and maybe Combi-Grav with White Scars CT comes to mind. I wouldn't spam that setup unless going battle company, but filling your min troops with that doesn't sound terrible.

I'm running a few Tactical squads using Raptors CT and Lias Issodon to infiltrate them. Haven't decided how well it works yet myself, but objective secure bodies with a Grav-Cannon and plasma/grav gun + matching combi hasn't being awful thus far, infiltrating into cover somewhere in the midfield (preferably on or near objectives)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 11:23:45


 
   
 
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