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mondo80 wrote: 2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.
I know a guy who thought warp talons were the best unit in the game because claws.
Doesn't make them good.
Muties in a landraider is a very expensive unit that falls over against similar priced units from other dexes. At best it will manage to kill 2 units, more likely 1 or none, before being destroyed.
For people claiming Muties are good, I'd appreciate a battle report where they are used against a good force effectively or a tactica that holds up to scrutiny. Saying "I said so" doesn't carry much weight on an online forum.
I got ya, mate.
Chaos Marines vs. Eldar. Chaos wins. Mutilators show their value in turns 3 and 4.
This Mutilator review pretty much supports everything that you're saying, and even brings in some mathhammer to show how terrible Mutilators are, but it gives you a good strategy to use them for, at the end.
Here is a thread/tactica discussing different ways in which to deploy Mutilators effectively, and in a much more constructive manner, I might add. Among them is DSing three individual Mutis for maximum effect.
Fists vs. Chaos Marines. Turn 3 and 4 see the Muti wreck a Rhino when the nearby Tac Marines fail to eliminate it on the turn it deepstrikes in.
raven guard vs. Chaos Marines. Chaos gets wrecked, but I'd like to point out how a single Mutilator drew the fire of a Tac Squad and a Rapier - a total of 190 pts. worth of shooting to take out a 55 pts. model. How delicious. A Mutilator proceeds to drive the Rapier Crew off the Board (55 pt. Unit rendering a 120-pt. Unit absolutely useless). Another Muti gets destroyed by a 100 pt. Thunderfire. Notice how the Mutis are drawing fire from higher-point Units the entire match.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.
Such negativity, SMH. Here's a few more, then.
http://www.mobswell.net/streaming/TvVyvouo6Ww/warhammer-40k-chaos-space-marine-mutilator-tactics.html Runs through a few viable ways of running mutis.
This guy explains a great use for Mutilators 4Chan supports the strategy that has been espoused on virtually every link that I've given, as well.
This battle report has Mutilators wrecking face, due to the fact that the opponent chose to shoot at juicier targets and payed the price for it.
Honestly, at this point, I'm sick of looking up battle reports and tacticas, but I think that I've proven my point. Concede defeat, and move on. Nobody likes a stubborn negative nancy who has been proven wrong by 10 sources and brings no sources of her own to support her claim.
Akiasura wrote: We are reading very different reports if you thought they worked as advertised. Drawing 190 points worth of gunfire all game and removing one wounded cheap unit off the board is pretty useless, and is what I would expect. And the marine list was extremely subpar.
I know this is from an age ago, but, 55 pt. unit keeps 190 pts. from doing their job. How is that not a good distraction?
This is what I get for going on vacation without a Laptop charger. I really hate to bring up something from 6 pages ago, but I hate to leave an argument without at least conceding defeat, and I refuse to concede defeat unless proven wrong. Seriously, at least provide some kind of battle report of your own that shows them failing. I never like Mutis to begin with, honestly, Oblits do the job better, but I do believe that they are playable, and have a use as a distraction unit, and/or Linebreaker Unit that isn't a high-priority target. My replies are in red.
mondo80 wrote: 2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.
I know a guy who thought warp talons were the best unit in the game because claws.
Doesn't make them good.
Muties in a landraider is a very expensive unit that falls over against similar priced units from other dexes. At best it will manage to kill 2 units, more likely 1 or none, before being destroyed.
For people claiming Muties are good, I'd appreciate a battle report where they are used against a good force effectively or a tactica that holds up to scrutiny. Saying "I said so" doesn't carry much weight on an online forum.
I got ya, mate.
Chaos Marines vs. Eldar. Chaos wins. Mutilators show their value in turns 3 and 4.
Old dex, I've already seen this battle report. This is the one where the guy takes a very sub par list and forgets to deploy a Wave serpent.
I'm quite aware of Jancorans blog. I've been asking him for recent battle reports to back up his claims for a while now, much to my dismay
The Muties did precisely what we claimed they would. They chased units out of advantageous positions, and drew fire from other Units. How does this not prove the point? Better yet, how about you disprove it by actually providing sources where they failed to do their job (ie distracting heavy weapons fire, or forcing it to move). Perhaps using actual logic rather than throwing around insults would drive your point through our thick skulls a little better? Rebuffs tend to work better when based upon logic, as insults are generally only there to get an emotional response from people.
This Mutilator review pretty much supports everything that you're saying, and even brings in some mathhammer to show how terrible Mutilators are, but it gives you a good strategy to use them for, at the end.
Good read, nothing new though
Nothing new? It shows them useful for getting a VP, ie, one of the primary means of winning matches.
Here is a thread/tactica discussing different ways in which to deploy Mutilators effectively, and in a much more constructive manner, I might add. Among them is DSing three individual Mutis for maximum effect.
Fists vs. Chaos Marines. Turn 3 and 4 see the Muti wreck a Rhino when the nearby Tac Marines fail to eliminate it on the turn it deepstrikes in.
An old game, and the marine list is terrible. It has 30+ tactical marines
Yeah, the Muti had no real effect here, by the time they could charge, the Marines were already dead. I'm pretty sure that I just posted this link because it was one of the only Battle Reports that I could find. I posted literally every Battle Report I found in the first 5 pages of Google that featured solo Muties (as running a full squad of Muties is, imho, downright moronic).
raven guard vs. Chaos Marines. Chaos gets wrecked, but I'd like to point out how a single Mutilator drew the fire of a Tac Squad and a Rapier - a total of 190 pts. worth of shooting to take out a 55 pts. model. How delicious. A Mutilator proceeds to drive the Rapier Crew off the Board (55 pt. Unit rendering a 120-pt. Unit absolutely useless). Another Muti gets destroyed by a 100 pt. Thunderfire. Notice how the Mutis are drawing fire from higher-point Units the entire match.
The only good battle report that was posted, so thank you for that.
A few things
1) Were the mutilators deployed as a group? They all arrived turn 2 and I can't find them in the photos.
2) 190 points to kill a 55 pt model isn't great, but it's not terrible. It's 1/3 of their point cost, which is the cusp of being worth shooting at.
3) The mutilator destroyed the rapier crew AFTER the crew was roasted by a drake. So...they dedicated more points than the unit was worth by a bit.
4) I see no mention of the mutilator killing a thunderfire. The thunderfire is still operating on the last turn, when does this happen?
5) The only other time the mutilator was fired upon was by the techmarine, which destroyed it.
1.) It appears that they were. Use of the word "Mutilator" (no s) made it appear to me that they were deployed separately during the battle, but they were not. Skimming articles isn't always the best way to select them.
4.) I said that the Mutis got destroyed by one, not that they killed one. I'll just assume you misread that.
To me, if a unit can kill 1/3 of it's points in a turn, that's about average. 1/2 is great, but not even the bikes manage to kill their point cost every turn without support. 1/4 and lower is where it gets bad. So in this report, the mutilator managed to barely succeed once, and this is the only relevant report you posted. For the rest of the game, there is no mention of them doing anything, and this was not a powerful list.
In the future, if someone is asking for battle reports against the power armies (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Necron) posting old battle reports doesn't do much to help your argument. It makes it seem like, since these armies have released, mutilators have completely fallen off the game (or maybe chaos has?). Competitive army lists (For eldar, this would mean bikes, aspect warriors, WK, and not guardians from a previous edition; Space marines bikes and cents, not 30+ tacticals or vanguard; Necrons decurion; Tau suits and tides). That's what I have been asking for the entire time, from anyone, and so far no one has delivered. I'm a professor by trade, if someone is able to provide evidence that I'm wrong I'll happily switch opinions. I own a huge chaos army and would love to field mutilators, but in my meta only the better armies get played. I won't be going up against 30 tacticals or a dread mob sadly Out of your 10 sources, 1 battle report is against a modern codex I believe, and the list isn't what I would consider competitive, and the mutilators didn't accomplish what you are claiming. I probably should have spelled out what competitive consists of so that's my mistake.
Appreciate the reports though!
I posted every Battle Report that I could find within 5 pages of a google search, which I just repeated and couldn't find anything else worth adding. Also, the burden of proof lies upon all parties making claims, not just the ones making positive claims.
dusara217 wrote: This is what I get for going on vacation without a Laptop charger. I really hate to bring up something from 6 pages ago, but I hate to leave an argument without at least conceding defeat, and I refuse to concede defeat unless proven wrong. Seriously, at least provide some kind of battle report of your own that shows them failing. I never like Mutis to begin with, honestly, Oblits do the job better, but I do believe that they are playable, and have a use as a distraction unit, and/or Linebreaker Unit that isn't a high-priority target. My replies are in red.
mondo80 wrote: 2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.
I know a guy who thought warp talons were the best unit in the game because claws.
Doesn't make them good.
Muties in a landraider is a very expensive unit that falls over against similar priced units from other dexes. At best it will manage to kill 2 units, more likely 1 or none, before being destroyed.
For people claiming Muties are good, I'd appreciate a battle report where they are used against a good force effectively or a tactica that holds up to scrutiny. Saying "I said so" doesn't carry much weight on an online forum.
I got ya, mate.
Chaos Marines vs. Eldar. Chaos wins. Mutilators show their value in turns 3 and 4.
Old dex, I've already seen this battle report. This is the one where the guy takes a very sub par list and forgets to deploy a Wave serpent.
I'm quite aware of Jancorans blog. I've been asking him for recent battle reports to back up his claims for a while now, much to my dismay
The Muties did precisely what we claimed they would. They chased units out of advantageous positions, and drew fire from other Units. How does this not prove the point? Better yet, how about you disprove it by actually providing sources where they failed to do their job (ie distracting heavy weapons fire, or forcing it to move). Perhaps using actual logic rather than throwing around insults would drive your point through our thick skulls a little better? Rebuffs tend to work better when based upon logic, as insults are generally only there to get an emotional response from people.
Well, as I've mentioned already....
1) It's very hard to prove a negative. It's much easier to prove that they are good, if its true. Since the side of the argument is unable to claim any reasons as to why they are good other than "it works in gameplay" proof of gameplay is required. Otherwise we could say the pyrovore is good.
Two Hypotheses that I know of have been proposed that were, in any way, viable. The first involves DSing Muties next to some LFs (or equivalent units) to distract Heavy Weapons fire from advancing tanks, Spawn, etc. This would force the enemy to choose between a.) firing upon the Muties, thus losing the opportunity to target the actually combat-useful targets b.) running away, forcing Snap Shots w/ the heavy weapons c.) Ignoring the Muties, and eating the charge. Unfortunately, nobody has actually bothered to test his with two or three matches to see if it actually works. The other one is using them DS for Linebreaker, which nobody has argued against, nor tested.
2) I was unable to provide any battle reports where the mutilators are even taken other than yours. Notice that the ones you provided prove my point for me, for the most part. I imagine I'd have the same issues finding ones where pyrovores performed poorly as well, since most people just won't play them.
3) At no point did I insult Jancoran in that message. That list was very subpar for a 6th edition list (especially since it was claimed to be mech dar) and he did forget to deploy a wave serpent. I have also asked Jancoran to post battle reports of his success with units, because he uses his games as proof of why things work. If someone came on here and said they beat Scatbike spam with pyrovores, but couldn't explain how, wouldn't you ask for a report?
Perhaps I misread the tone of voice, then. It appeared that you were calling his meta trash and his list bad. I admit it can be easy to mistake such things when reading forum posts.
4) I have been providing logic. I've posted detailed reasoning as to why mutilators are bad, in many ways. Even in specific context, when asked. The other side has devolved into insults since, I imagine, they are out of reasoning.
5) I have actually been the one being insulted (or did you skip over pseudo intellectual dick measuring comment?).
Honestly, you two had a good little back-and-forth going with the insults, and I skipped about two pages of the thread when I ran into a page where the first half was literally just insults. I'm actually a little surprised Alpharius didn't lock the thread on that page.
6) None of the battle reports the [b]mutilators are good side provided really shows they are good. At all, despite exaggerations and claims to the contrary.
My Batreps were all of the ones that I could find that seemed relevant to the discussion at hand, the point was that they were useful, when used properly, and the strategies that I believe them to be useful for were not present in any of the BatReps provided.
This Mutilator review pretty much supports everything that you're saying, and even brings in some mathhammer to show how terrible Mutilators are, but it gives you a good strategy to use them for, at the end.
Good read, nothing new though
Nothing new? It shows them useful for getting a VP, ie, one of the primary means of winning matches.
1) It's from 2012. It's not the current edition.
2) It's just a review. People can say anything.
3) It pretty much admits that they are terrible overall.
It puts forth a viable strategy, that makes perfect sense, that was the point. It reiterated all of your points, but it said that they were useful, when used properly (ie cheap linebreaker).
Here is a thread/tactica discussing different ways in which to deploy Mutilators effectively, and in a much more constructive manner, I might add. Among them is DSing three individual Mutis for maximum effect.
Fists vs. Chaos Marines. Turn 3 and 4 see the Muti wreck a Rhino when the nearby Tac Marines fail to eliminate it on the turn it deepstrikes in.
An old game, and the marine list is terrible. It has 30+ tactical marines
Yeah, the Muti had no real effect here, by the time they could charge, the Marines were already dead. I'm pretty sure that I just posted this link because it was one of the only Battle Reports that I could find. I posted literally every Battle Report I found in the first 5 pages of Google that featured solo Muties (as running a full squad of Muties is, imho, downright moronic).
Fair enough, I couldn't find any new ones myself. Another report where mutilators are bad and don't achieve anything though
raven guard vs. Chaos Marines. Chaos gets wrecked, but I'd like to point out how a single Mutilator drew the fire of a Tac Squad and a Rapier - a total of 190 pts. worth of shooting to take out a 55 pts. model. How delicious. A Mutilator proceeds to drive the Rapier Crew off the Board (55 pt. Unit rendering a 120-pt. Unit absolutely useless). Another Muti gets destroyed by a 100 pt. Thunderfire. Notice how the Mutis are drawing fire from higher-point Units the entire match.
The only good battle report that was posted, so thank you for that.
A few things
1) Were the mutilators deployed as a group? They all arrived turn 2 and I can't find them in the photos.
2) 190 points to kill a 55 pt model isn't great, but it's not terrible. It's 1/3 of their point cost, which is the cusp of being worth shooting at.
3) The mutilator destroyed the rapier crew AFTER the crew was roasted by a drake. So...they dedicated more points than the unit was worth by a bit.
4) I see no mention of the mutilator killing a thunderfire. The thunderfire is still operating on the last turn, when does this happen?
5) The only other time the mutilator was fired upon was by the techmarine, which destroyed it.
1.) It appears that they were. Use of the word "Mutilator" (no s) made it appear to me that they were deployed separately during the battle, but they were not. Skimming articles isn't always the best way to select them.
4.) I said that the Mutis got destroyed by one, not that they killed one. I'll just assume you misread that.
1) I was very confused by this, and it really defeats the purpose of the report. We have been discussing them as 3 different guys.
4) Oh you mean where they were destroyed by overwatch from the techmarine? I did misread that, sorry.
Again, outside of killing one unit (Which you somehow forget to mention that a heldrake had already attacked....) the mutilators didn't do anything. It didn't seem, from the photos, that the tac squad had another target to really fire at, and if the mutilators had deployed together, they too are about 190 points.
Honestly, the newer battle reports show the mutilators showing up and not really accomplishing anything of note. Just like most of us have claimed would happen.
To me, if a unit can kill 1/3 of it's points in a turn, that's about average. 1/2 is great, but not even the bikes manage to kill their point cost every turn without support. 1/4 and lower is where it gets bad. So in this report, the mutilator managed to barely succeed once, and this is the only relevant report you posted. For the rest of the game, there is no mention of them doing anything, and this was not a powerful list.
In the future, if someone is asking for battle reports against the power armies (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Necron) posting old battle reports doesn't do much to help your argument. It makes it seem like, since these armies have released, mutilators have completely fallen off the game (or maybe chaos has?). Competitive army lists (For eldar, this would mean bikes, aspect warriors, WK, and not guardians from a previous edition; Space marines bikes and cents, not 30+ tacticals or vanguard; Necrons decurion; Tau suits and tides). That's what I have been asking for the entire time, from anyone, and so far no one has delivered. I'm a professor by trade, if someone is able to provide evidence that I'm wrong I'll happily switch opinions. I own a huge chaos army and would love to field mutilators, but in my meta only the better armies get played. I won't be going up against 30 tacticals or a dread mob sadly Out of your 10 sources, 1 battle report is against a modern codex I believe, and the list isn't what I would consider competitive, and the mutilators didn't accomplish what you are claiming. I probably should have spelled out what competitive consists of so that's my mistake.
Appreciate the reports though!
I posted every Battle Report that I could find within 5 pages of a google search, which I just repeated and couldn't find anything else worth adding. Also, the burden of proof lies upon all parties making claims, not just the ones making positive claims.
That's not true.
One side, the side claiming muties are bad, has given detailed reasoning on why they believe mutilators are bad. Math and scenarios have been submitted as proof.
The other side, claiming muties are good, has been unable to give reasoning that isn't "they overcome their weaknesses in gameplay". Battle reports would be required as proof here, since nothing else has been offered.
To note, and I think this is critical;
In the battle reports provided by the mutilators are good side, the mutilators did not perform well in any of the 7th edition battles even though their performance was exaggerated. So really, the mutilators are bad side does have proof, they just didn't provide it.
Actually, if you had bothered to read the post, you would have realized that you misread a portion, and I said that they got killed by a 100 pt. Unit, not the other way around. But, whatever floats your boat.
Ok, then, i'm no Einstein of 40k, so what makes for good point expenditure for a single VP? Let's say that we're playing an 1850 pt. Tournament match, and I DS my Mutilator to your backfield for Linebreaker late-game. Was my 63 pt. (with MoN, it adds 8 pts., I think) expenditure worth it? To my mind, that seems like a worthy Unit, when used in such a manner, is this not the case? Obviously, it's not going to be an absolute gamechanging kind of thing, but that seems like an excellent bargain for the one VP that might be the difference between defeat and draw, or draw and victory.
EDIT: Added a few responses into the spoiler, I just realized you responded inside of it. My bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 19:45:12
Akiasura wrote:I was referring to the parts where you mentioned a 190 point unit fired at a single mutilator and that a single mutilator ran off a small squad, while neglecting to mention the heldrake that had attacked the same unit. And it was a unit of mutilators, not a single guy....which makes it worse...
I clearly stated that I had misread the tech marine and restated it (i believe they died to over watch). Literally stated I had misread that.
But that would require reading what other people are writing
Line breaker is rarely achieved by mutilators, and chaos has a lot of units that can more easily achieve this, by being either tougher or faster. Firing a 150 point tactical squad at a mutilator to remove a vp is a good use of points since it moves you forward on scenario and attrition after all. Removing a bike squad is much harder, since they can boost into a corner out of sight.
If you could control when you ds in, could hide, or was tougher, that would be a lot better. You also can only score one point line breaker max no?
I didn't realize you had written things in the spoiler, as well, my apologies. Fixed the post.
Also, by your way of thinking, what is a competitive amount of points to spend on a Victory Point? Would spending 200 points on a victory point seem like points well-spent? What about 189 pts.?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 19:51:20
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: We sort of established that 9 pages ago, but something about batreps generated another 9 pages of finger pointing.
I know, I just wanted to offer my opinion on the matter. I apologize that it wasn't that insightful, but I just wanted to pop in.
I know but I felt like some sass, if only to get the point across to others that this issue still hasn't been acknowledged.
It has, actually, been acknowledged by all parties as one of the Mutilatorss' greatest weaknesses. Which is why people aren't saying "start the game with Mutilators there to cover your Warlord" or "Deepstrike them in next to some Jetbikes", it's being argued that they complement target saturation and make good Linebreakers, make the enemy have to choose between being forced to snap shot at prioirty targets or eat the charge and squeeze off a round of shooting before being destroyed.
Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread
My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.
Right?
It's almost like someone was trying to determine what uses mutilators have, if any, rather than have an agenda I've also been the only person willing to admit that both sides are right to a degree. Crazy for a forum I know.
tbf, I already admitted that Oblits do the Muties' job much better than the Muties do. I was just arguing that Muties aren't useless garbage, and can have a useful role in certain, very specific competitive lists, so long as said lists play to the Muties' strengths.
