Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

vundere wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I mean, do you consider these models to be looking like massproduced, soulless and boring products? I'd hope not, they're not expertly painted or anything like that, but I would be disappointed if someone thought of them as "soulless", but they're mostly done by airbrush and then detailed with a hairy brush...
snip

I think OP is referring more to minis in the vein of this one


This is not the best example, but it's one of the clearest ones I could find right off the bat. Basic colours with slight shading, spray a bunch of glowing points on it and call it a day.

Most commission painters will have more detail than that, but you can often still clearly see the "feathering" from airbrush spray and a bunch of glowing points strewn about.

yeh its more common than people are suggesting.... it looks awful to me but ive actually seen armys like this win best painted at large events lol. to each his own i guess

 Talizvar wrote:
I have been using the old hairy brush for years and getting quite good at it, started out with enamel paint and got into oils.
Then found that fancy kind of paint called acrylic: made me angry how good that paint went down.
So painted acrylics for a bit and learned a few tricks with shading with inks and technical pens.
Then silly things like "Nuln oil" and stuff like that came out and shading detail that looked awesome and took little effort... cheating I tell you.
Then I got on the airbrush 3 years ago.... a few false starts... the freaking thing is awesome.
I HATE how smooth it puts down paint, HATE how a graveled base is covered in seconds, HATE how I can block paint in minutes not hours... I HATE that darned thing.
BUT, I have found now that there is a point that no matter how fine an airbrush you get and all the masking in the world will not substitute for a few details and washes done by brush.

I can appreciate anything getting painted, that is a given.
I do agree that at some point there is a "tabletop" standard for some airbrush work that should not be passed off as "pro-painted".
An easy sign of this is just look where no masking off was done or the zenithal lighting is all over the place.

For a prime example of needing more work than just a few shots of airbrush:

Spoiler:

A great example of pure airbrush painting is this guy "Next Level Painting" I can learn a lot on airbrush techniques from this guy (they ARE awesome) but his style is just not my thing:
http://nextlevelpainting.blogspot.ca/

Spoiler:

They get this cartoon look to them, like cell shaded caricatures:
http://www.spikeybits.com/2014/03/40k-how-to-airbrushing-the-knight-titan.html

Spoiler:

Then there is these guys who show that a mixture of tools give you a good result:
http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2014/02/tutorial-how-to-paint-blood-angels.html

It is just another technique and like with any form of art it is not for everyone.
I am just happy (HATE!) that the airbrush is available, certain results it does so well in minutes what takes me hours with a brush.

that next level stuff looks awful.... it looks like a neon cartoon toy. airbrushes are "cheating" in certain aspects but frankly im personally sick of taking hours to basecoat models. i want an airbrush so so so badly but i can really only see using it for basecoats and maybe a few other things. every centerpiece ill ever paint will be most likely 100 percent brush

my biggest hate is the airbrushed nonsense on ebay that they sell for 300 bucks lol. go ebay pro painted bloodthirster and laugh at how gakky it is vs how much they charge.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

eosgreen wrote:
airbrushes are "cheating" in certain aspects

No, they really aren't.

yes they are. theres a reason there used to be airbrush and paintbrush brackets for competitions. certain things an airbrush does, a brush cant compete with. for example blending large scale models. i suppose i could spend 1k hours to attempt to compete but um... yeh....

it drastically reduces the time it takes to paint and makes certain tasks easier. its harder to paint without leaving brush strokes and things of this nature than with an airbrush. certain effects are also made easier with an airbrush.

- it isnt cheating in the normal sense of the word but it feels dirty.

- do you play starcraft 2? airbrushes are like forcefielding ramps. it isnt "cheating" but everyone hates you and thinks you are a dick

 insaniak wrote:

eosgreen wrote:
...certain things an airbrush does, a brush cant compete with.

Indeed. Similarly, when you want to paint something blue, using blue paint does a better job of it than orange.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

eosgreen wrote:
- it isnt cheating in the normal sense of the word but it feels dirty.

You know what? You're right. From now on, I'm going to class people who use an airbrush in the same category as those stinking hobby-destroyers who do their basecoats with any brush bigger than a size 0.



It's not 'cheating' in any sense of the word to use a technique or tool that is faster or easier than some other technique or tool. It's just using a different technique or tool.

thats not an equal comparison. it would be like you are using blue paint and im using the ingredients that make blue paint that i mix on the model

im not saying using tools that make a job easier is not smart, im simply saying that its a lot harder to use a brush to do most of the stuff an airbrush does with little effort. its more like using a metal bat vs a wooden one. the wooden bat is harder to use so why do pros use one? because if lesser players get half the connection a pro gets with a wood bat, he sends that gak outa the park every time and that wouldnt be fun. airbrush is great but it takes away so much of the skill required to do the same job as a brush.

would you call autotuning cheating? autotuning is like an airbrush and my natural brush talent is being dirtied next to the airbrushes easy shading.


youre not gonna like this last part but what would you know about the complaints of airbrush vs brush. i looked at your gallery, you havent experienced the problems high level brush paintjobs exp. so how would you know.... you have a black templar chaplain that is edge highlighted with a blue line. have you ever messed with grey paint at a seriously seamless level shading a tank? do you know how fickle grey is? what about red. do you know how many people struggle with shading red lol? airbrushes make those problems a joke....

when people ask me "dude did you airbrush that blade?" thats when you know all that hard work was worth it. the sad part is that it can be done effortlessly with an airbrush in 1/10th the time with 1/10th the skill. just go get really good with a brush and airbrush then come back to me

 Talys wrote:
Yes, using an airbrush is cheating, just like using a can of spray paint or any model that's drybrushed is clearly an indication of cheating. Oh, decals too. Give me freehand or give me death!

Models should be judged by the ability of the hobbyist to paint them with one paintbrush and the cyan, magenta, yellow, white, and black paints!

/snark

I mean, c'mon. It's just a tool. It takes paint and sprays it out. An airbrush and compressor can be had for as little as $80 -- less than a full set of really nice sable brushes. They aren't exotic. It's like saying the guy with greenstuff and sculpting tools is cheating because they can do things that someone without can't. Airbrushes sound all exotic and complicated until you use one, and then it's like, "oh, well, that's simple."

I think fully or mostly airbrushed models can look good or look like poo, no different than models painted with anything else.

If it's a look you like, though, good on ya. But either way, it's silly is paying someone for an army of these models that has that "airbrushy look", because anyone can do that with very little practice, and it really doesn't take long to, uh.. "master" the sort of model that has big panels, some glowy spots, and a bunch of sponging..

the word cheating is the wrong word but people get so stuck up on it they keep missing the point. anyone who says airbrushing is cheating is refering to the level of skill needed to accomplish the same level of results. decals look gakky but its much harder to freehand my beil tan heart and eldar rune symbol than it is to slide transfer one.

thats all people are really saying. airbrushing is EASIER they just call it "cheating"....


edit - whats with the sensoring of curse words lol. im one google search away from the most horrible things a man can see but god forbid on that same machine someone say the curse word for poo

kb_lock wrote:
Anyone that thinks airbrushing is easier has obviously never used one. Cleaning and maintenance are a pig.

Anyone that thinks an airbrush is cheating should be mixing their own paint from pigment and using their own hair to make brushes, as demonstrated here the last time this utterly stupid bait thread happened;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394884.page

it is a bait because cheating is the wrong word. the proper phrase is "less skilled"

kb_lock wrote:
A drill requires less skill than a hammer. Ban drills!

id say everyone except myself on this thread is incapable of painting well, what would any of you know about this topic lol.

winterdyne wrote:
Well so far all I've got from this thread is that you don't like majority airbrush jobs. That's fine. You then go on to disparage work of various commission places, and later attempt to justify this by stating the price for that work is too high.

The truth is that if people want to pay for that level of work, that level of work will be provided. Sure it's not golden demon level stuff up close, but it a badly lit gaming room from four feet away, it's functional. And if people want to pay for it, they will.

What determines the price is not the product in isolation (and you're doomed from a business point of view if you think so) it's the supply of equivalent product (meaning standard of paintwork here), the demand for that product (size of the market), the cost of the product in terms of time (this varies massively- I simply cannot paint as cheaply as a Malaysian studio for my time for example) and finally the amount of capital in that market (determing how much people can pay).

If you feth up a pinlining job, that's your problem; you can and should factor the chance of your messing up into your initial quote- it forms part of the cost of your product. Awareness of ones own product is critical in running any business, but in a service business like commission painting or IT consultancy it's even more so.

Back to the core point- a fast airbrushed job is quick and more importantly predictable and consistent once a certain level of skill achieved. This makes it a suitable 'base' product for a professional (financially grounded) commission studio.

So I don't understand what you're trying to say other than stating you don't like something.

this is the point to end all points. since most people here are poo painters they have never had anyone ask them to paint something or offer to be hired. I get asked all the time and I never do it. the reason is once i said sure, followed by returning the money a day later when it hit me how long it actually takes to get a certain standard without an airbrush

lets talk salary/money

- you paint a squad for commission.
- avg work day is 8 hours and lets say bare minimum 10 an hour
- the client wants an army that will score well at tournys (as many do)


how long does it take you to paint 10 models? an hour each? ok so do you think someones paying 80 bucks for 10 marines to be painted? also it doesnt take an hour each to paint a good model. id be lucky to do one in an hour. is someone paying 100 bucks PLUS 30 for the marines to be painted? he needs like 40 more marines...... and tanks, and special units. what is the price at over a grand? who here is going to pay a grand for a not that well painted army? it will score well kinda, it wont look that great up close?

- heres the most important part

- most people are TERRIBLE painters. i mean AWFUL. that being said a really poorly airbrushed model like that bloodthirster has inherent shading that airbrushes provide and look good from a distance will REALLY appeal to most people and take VERY little time to accomplish. it completely DESTROYS anything most people can even do and what ive learned is that most people who cannot paint well, also cannot really take notice to most of the detail a high standard paint job entails. its just a thing ive noticed.

you can choose to not believe me but go to 5 hobby shops that play tabletop. take note of the plastic awfulness or just downright globbed on garbage paint jobs then think.... those airbrushed models are lookin pretty good right about now.

i still maintain airbrushing needs a sep category at painting competitions

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Your points would be taken more seriously if you didn't gak on the people you're trying to convince.

Here's the thing:
If you want us to agree with you, blanket calling everyone else's work a turd is not going to help, especially doing it as abrasively as this.

If you don't want us to agree with you, and are just posting to read your own words, that is masturbation, and we don't need to see it here.

I'm actually on board with many of your points, but your eloquent approach is sullying it significantly.

im not running for office. i can point out a fact most dont want to admit

"most people are crappy painters" "this stuff looks so good to them"

who am i insulting anyway? bad painters who want to comment about topics involving painting. what a joke. that be like insulting illiterate people in text and being worried

also where do you get this notion i want to read my own words lol. are you upset i made comments that might disqualify you from commenting about the matter? its the internet man you are one google search away from dudes having heads cut off on vid. thicker skin please

also all the logic in the world falls on deaf ears over the internet and even in real life. if anything im wasting my time. accuse me of that

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I would posit that one does not need to be a chef to understand that raw sewage is unsafe to eat.

the better you are as a painter the more troubles you come to understand is all i am saying

i once was having a conversation with someone about struggling with red and grey glazes. i said "im having issues with the pigment etc blah blah" to which some guy comes up to us and in true socially inept nerd fashion interjects his insightful "really red is so easy how are you having issues"

i then ask the person to show me his models he painted red which he is VERY proud of of which he simply painted GW style of base, wash, rebase leaving lines at armor cracks/plates edge highlight, lighter edge highlight. this is by most peoples standards a very well painted model but im talking about a blend so perfect your eye cant even see the transition of colors that takes hours to do. he doesnt know any better, he CAN'T know any better.

so to your example, it would be like a person describing how horrible war is having fought in one vs someone who has not. sure you understand a GENERAL idea but you don't know anything CLOSE to the guy whos been there and done that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

eosgreen wrote:
- most people are TERRIBLE painters. i mean AWFUL. that being said a really poorly airbrushed model like that bloodthirster has inherent shading that airbrushes provide and look good from a distance will REALLY appeal to most people and take VERY little time to accomplish. it completely DESTROYS anything most people can even do and what ive learned is that most people who cannot paint well, also cannot really take notice to most of the detail a high standard paint job entails. its just a thing ive noticed.

I'm not sure if this is support for airbrushes or condemnation of them.

If you can paint a model quickly that appeals to people.... err... that's the whole idea of a business?

You don't get brownie points for doing things the hard way

Also I think you exaggerate what "very" little time things take to accomplish. Faster? Yes. Though still long enough that you are going to end up charging 2-4 times the cost of the model to earn minimum wage.

If the pictures in your gallery are yours then you are obviously a decent painter, but have you actually used an airbrush? If so did you watch the clock? It can feel fast because the paint gets laid down quickly, but once you include the extra effort involved in setting it up, mixing your paints to the right consistency, adding masks to the model, spending a few minutes cleaning it out between colour changes plus the time at the end. It's quicker for large models, no doubt, but it's not some magical "instant complete" button, for small models that are going to require a lot of masking I'd hazard a guess and say it's not much quicker than brush painting for high standard stuff.

im condemning them for competitions when competing with people using brushes and supporting them for commission work against people who are crying "its not actually well painted it looks terrible"

i agree mixing and cleaning is terrible but, thats why you do large monsters or large assembly line style. the markups on these new large as hell models are very rewarding imo. if i wanted to make money selling models I would most likely do wraithknights and the sort, doing 6 at a time. i imagine this would cut down on the "slow" parts about airbrushing significantly

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

eosgreen wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I would posit that one does not need to be a chef to understand that raw sewage is unsafe to eat.

the better you are as a painter the more troubles you come to understand is all i am saying

i once was having a conversation with someone about struggling with red and grey glazes. i said "im having issues with the pigment etc blah blah" to which some guy comes up to us and in true socially inept nerd fashion interjects his insightful "really red is so easy how are you having issues"

i then ask the person to show me his models he painted red which he is VERY proud of of which he simply painted GW style of base, wash, rebase leaving lines at armor cracks/plates edge highlight, lighter edge highlight. this is by most peoples standards a very well painted model but im talking about a blend so perfect your eye cant even see the transition of colors that takes hours to do. he doesnt know any better, he CAN'T know any better.

I would say that it is exposure, not talent, that is linked to understanding.
Hear me out here... I paint to an adequate, albeit weird standard. But I live near to WHW's museum, I've been to Golem Studios technique days, I live with an ex citadel catalog painter. It doesn't make me any better at painting, but I know exactly where on the grander scale I stand, and how results are achieved through hours of work, and in many cases, repeats and failures. Outside of miniatures I've done degrees in fine art, and understand methods that I'm likewise incapable of performing. But I can appreciate what went into the pieces I study.
Dave at your FLGS may only know what he's seen in White Dwarf, and the various miniatures in front of him at the store. He doesn't know why it's red, he just know it is indeed, red.
Seeing the bigger picture (or even realising it exists) is not a gift everyone has, but likewise an individual's talent may not be indicative of their own understanding.

Dialling it back from a war comparison, if you are looking online to buy something for your life, say a USB device, you look at reviews. You seek out experiences from those who have similar taste to your own. You don't think, "Well this guy couldn't build the keyboard, I'm only going to take opinions from engineers and factory workers."

i can get down with this though i suppose you have met the exception to this rule, i have. also damn im jealous of your proximity to that studio. i read about them a while ago and I would KILLLLLLLL for someone who was even SLIGHTLY better than me to bounce off of. im in an area devoid of talent and it took me till the internet became "better" to get good.... i just constantly googled and read whatever i could but as a guy who learns while doing/seeng in person it was hard as hell to get better.... so jelly atm let me crash at your place for a year ye? :p

when painting things like historic models an airbrush mimics them best imo. painting camo is dog without an airbrush to me. stippling looks, imo, garbage.

OP get an airbrush if you can afford/have the setup. its well worth ti

also you are the exception. ive taught tons of people simple things that years later they cannot do see or understand. latent talent in both doing and seeing is a thing, not everyone has potential.

kb_lock wrote:
Anyone thinking "Airbrushing is easy mode" has clearly never done it.

This is prep for one model, multi part construction for easier blends and minimal masking takes so much time, it would be faster with a brush in a lot of ways.

Like anything, it is how you do it and what you want to achieve, which is why this would be better off in the religion and politics section instead of the serious business that is painting and modeling

i do most of that with brush work too.

"masking" doesnt take much time lol

 JamesY wrote:
Depends on what you are masking. If you are doing a hurricane and need to get the camouflage exactly right, it can take a while.

a task that looks, imo, unrealistic and gakky when using a brush. camo patters with airbrushes look like real life because they use this style application in real life. i guess they also use the weird dipping thing but ye.... google dipping hunting gear in camo. its crazy...