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I bought the starter set of Armada last week and have played two games so far, both with players who hadn't played before (but in the latter case had seen the previous game). We have been having an unexpected problem, though: how fiddly interacting with the game pieces is. In particular:

- even though these are, presumably, the smallest-sized games anyone plays, the maneuver tool can be relied on to be impossible to place most of the time due to squadrons or ships being in the way, or impossible to place flush with the table due to things like asteroids
- measuring range has problems with bumping the ships and squadrons
- the hit point gauges and turn markers on the squadrons seem impossible to interact with without moving the squadron a little
- it's so hard to move the shield dials without nudging the ships

I think the reason this is bothering me so much is the apparent precision of the maneuver tool and how important facing is, along with the potential for the small facing adjustments to compound as the game goes on.

If you have played Armada, did this bother you at all? How did you deal with it? I thought the dials and things were really cute and cool ideas but a couple of games later I'm wishing they had cards to mark damage on like Warmachine.

- even though these are, presumably, the smallest-sized games anyone plays, the maneuver tool can be relied on to be impossible to place most of the time due to squadrons or ships being in the way, or impossible to place flush with the table due to things like asteroids
- measuring range has problems with bumping the ships and squadrons
- the hit point gauges and turn markers on the squadrons seem impossible to interact with without moving the squadron a little
- it's so hard to move the shield dials without nudging the ships

There is truth in what your experiencing the important thing is not let it interfere with the sprit of the game and being a good sport. It hasn't bothered my local group much, its just not a issue we nudge squadrons and return them to original position as best as we can, when needed. Should nudging a ship put it just outside of range (it has happened) we give the person the benefit of the doubt and allow him to fire. Its a complex game with a lot to remember but as you get a few more games in and the rules sink in it'll get easier.


I'm also thinking you did the starter/training mission? on a 3x3 board, if that is the case the crowded nature of the training mission becomes less of an issue in a normal game on a 6x3

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

- even though these are, presumably, the smallest-sized games anyone plays, the maneuver tool can be relied on to be impossible to place most of the time due to squadrons or ships being in the way, or impossible to place flush with the table due to things like asteroids
- measuring range has problems with bumping the ships and squadrons
- the hit point gauges and turn markers on the squadrons seem impossible to interact with without moving the squadron a little
- it's so hard to move the shield dials without nudging the ships

There is truth in what your experiencing the important thing is not let it interfere with the sprit of the game and being a good sport. It hasn't bothered my local group much, its just not a issue we nudge squadrons and return them to original position as best as we can, when needed. Should nudging a ship put it just outside of range (it has happened) we give the person the benefit of the doubt and allow him to fire. Its a complex game with a lot to remember but as you get a few more games in and the rules sink in it'll get easier.


I'm also thinking you did the starter/training mission? on a 3x3 board, if that is the case the crowded nature of the training mission becomes less of an issue in a normal game on a 6x3

Thanks for your thoughts! We were playing the 3x3 one both times, so that could have a bit to do with it. I also notice in the tournament rules they suggest using a more grippy surface like a playmat or whatever, and both times we were just using a plain tabletop.

The benefit of the doubt stuff does sound like a great way to go, it's just really surprising that it would be an issue when the game makes precise facing such a huge deal with the firing arcs and maneuver widget and fighter engagement ranges and what have you.

Thought so, its important to get onto a 6x3 board. Squadrons and ships get less packed together with far less bumping/nudging required. The tactics of the game shift; big time, as well. Objective choice can make or break your fleets play style.

A more "grippy" surface will help with some of this. I think that the nature of the game and its components requires a more relaxed and forgiving approach to playing.

I got a starfield mat from HCD gaming supplies and love it. It is a good thick mat that doesnt roll up on the edges and has decent stick for your models. I played a 400 point game this weekend and completely agree about having room. We did it on 6x3 and still felt crowded at times lol. Me being the awesome admiral that I am flew Ackbar off the map at round 6 or 7.

You're supposed to play on a giant white board and draw all your asteroids on and then mark all of your ships positions before fiddling with them. You can also magnetize them so they don't move when bumped

This is honestly one of the things that is hurting my interest in starting Armada. I've seen way too many games of X-Wing decided by a 0.01" difference in ship position or arc, and Armada makes the bumping problems even worse with dials on the actual ships. And "just be casual" isn't a very convincing answer when I know people who aren't at all shy about taking advantage of an "accidental" bump. I'd really prefer to avoid giving them the benefit of the doubt with social pressure to keep people from calling them on it.

Okay, update: tonight we tried on a 6x3 surface with a mat on it and it was much better. It was possible to update shield dials, move ships and frequently update squadron health/turn status without moving them. The ship density was a bit lower, at 5 ships across 6x3 rather than 3 across 3x3. Also the game is heaps more fun with more ships and especially squadrons, which are the best.

So it seems like playing on something less slippery than a tabletop is essential for a good experience.

Thanks to everyone for your input!

. And "just be casual" isn't a very convincing answer when I know people who aren't at all shy about taking advantage of an "accidental" bump. I'd really prefer to avoid giving them the benefit of the doubt with social pressure to keep people from calling them on it.

Play with better people.

 n815e wrote:

. And "just be casual" isn't a very convincing answer when I know people who aren't at all shy about taking advantage of an "accidental" bump. I'd really prefer to avoid giving them the benefit of the doubt with social pressure to keep people from calling them on it.

Play with better people.

While I agree with you. Wargammers aren't in vast endless quantities, sometimes you have to deal with a dud who spoils "casual and fun" for everyone.

I'm kind of suprised to see people complain about fiddlyness - it didn't strike me as much worse than X-Wing. I guess dials on the base can get fiddly (especially on the squadrons, where you almost have to pick them up off the table to turn the health dial).

It's true that you can run into issues if you accidentally nudge a ship from one range band into another, but X-Wing has that issue as well. The game could be played electronically with geometric perfection, but the nature of tabletop miniature wargaming is that you just have to live with imprecision.

Well, both games are all about positioning so some "precision" tools are wanted to highlight that fact and control it to some degree.
I am sure most people are fine if bumps happen as long as they can see a best effort to not do that.
Players intentionally doing it... should probably not play or others should give them a pass.

Compared to 40k with the gazillion positioning rules and number of models, either game does not seem fiddly at all.
It would be relatively easy to incorporate rare earth magnets into the stands, measure tool and a sheet metal backed table could be done.
Adding weights into the stand and measuring tool could also lend stability.
I just press down hard on the measure tool or stand to make sure it does not shift and I rarely have issues for either game.

I am not disappointed with either form of move templates because they take the game much closer in precision than a tape measure.

the generally levels of fiddly is pretty much wrote Armada off as not a game for me, it seems like a solid game but I'm sure a lot more of the accounting could have been done off table without constantly having to fuss with the models

Yea comming from a 40K background, this game is not fidly at all.

There are a few handy tricks though.

Those right angled things for marking setup zones?

They're also great for marking both ship and fighter positions when you have to move them.

And of course, having a spare ship base of the right size at hand can be helpful too.

Try get a second manoeuvre tool and only build it to range 2. Shorter tool helps a lot

The most fiddly thing for me is fighter squadron dials - everything else can be worked around without accidentally moving the base, but those are a right pain.

To me, the main problem is the visual intrusion of the bases. X-Wing is already getting a little annoying, but at least those bases are flat to the tabletop, not raised up. Then there's dealing with the cards and tokens. Do I put order stacks and speed dials with the ships or their cards? where do I keep the cards (especially when ships move near the table edges)? Nothing game-breaking, just little niggles that annoy me. Unlike X-Wing, I only play Armada because it's a Star Wars game (and I can't talk my friends into using Full Thrust :( ), not because I'm a fan of the rules themselves.

If the dials are a problem could you not just paper and pencil the relevant numbers?

Old school.......but effective.

 Mr Morden wrote:
If the dials are a problem could you not just paper and pencil the relevant numbers?
Old school.......but effective.

Or print your own tally sheets, laminate them and use dry erase markers.
Heck, a cup with tokens of some kind appropriately labeled, or a 4 way split Tupperware container... possibilities are endless.

I have heard that comment a few times that the stands are getting rather intrusive... like the model is the hood ornament and the real model is the base... which is ugly.

Couldn't you use one of the corner templates, nudge it against the squadron base, then pick up the base, change your dial and then put it back down in the angle of the template?

Measure before picking up to move dails than return to same place.

I like the idea of the second maneuver template and only making it to size 2, I'm going to have to try that.

I also think people (myself included) tend to expect a higher level of precision from a tabletop wargame than is reasonable. If you really are worried about .1" distances, you should probably play a computer game instead. Tabletop wargames just don't do well with that level of precision.

A second template out to speed 2 is definitely handy. I've heard of people putting the numbers in them backwards as well, to cut down on how far the maneuver tool sticks out beyond whatever ship is moving.