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Wondering if you guys like this list!

The premise is the seekers get grimoired, and the bloodthirster gets Invisibility. I can keep Belakor with shrouding close to almost everything with the speed, even the daemonetted. That means in cover, my units are extremely durable! I'll be posting 2 lists here, and would love extensive feedback! each list is 1 CAD, with 1 allied detachment.

HQ:

Fateweaver

Be'lakor(allied CSM)

Bloodthirster with the Str D axe, grimoire

Troops:

20 Daemonettes
20 Daemonettes

10 cultists (allied CSM)

Fast Attack:

20 Seekers of Slaanesh
6 Plague Drones


Second List:

HQ:

Fateweaver

Be'Lakor(allied CSM)

Bloodthirster with Str D axe, grimoire

Troops:

3 nurglings
3 nurglings
10 cultists (allied CSM)

Fast Attack:

20 seekers
6 plague drones
15 Hounds of Khorne

You can't use an Allied Detachment that is the same faction as your primary detachment so both lists are illegal

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't use an Allied Detachment that is the same faction as your primary detachment so both lists are illegal

You absolutely can... I'm not sure where you got that information, lol...

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't use an Allied Detachment that is the same faction as your primary detachment so both lists are illegal

You absolutely can... I'm not sure where you got that information, lol...

No you can't. Go read the Allied Detachment rules. Its in its restrictions

Wow... Can't believe I missed that the whole time... I guess to get belakor, I can sub out the nurglings, take him from CSM, and add in some cultists for 5 points more...

So I've edited the lists... What do you think now?

Just add one more troop and you can then run 2 CADS, and thus have a legal list; you can drop either a handful of daemonettes or hounds , depending on list, to accomplish this.

Personally, I like list 1, mainly in part to the daemonette blobs over the hounds. I would recommend some more warp charge (most likely via Horrors), but that is probably a tough sell in either list.

Update: My posts crossed paths with the posting of your new lists. I would recommend a second Daemons CAD over CSM, if you are just attempting to add in Belakor. If not...I still prefer option 1, although I don't have much else to add.

 Thantos Kalev wrote:
Just add one more troop and you can then run 2 CADS, and thus have a legal list; you can drop either a handful of daemonettes or hounds , depending on list, to accomplish this.

Personally, I like list 1, mainly in part to the daemonette blobs over the hounds. I would recommend some more warp charge (most likely via Horrors), but that is probably a tough sell in either list.

Update: My posts crossed paths with the posting of your new lists. I would recommend a second Daemons CAD over CSM, if you are just attempting to add in Belakor. If not...I still prefer option 1, although I don't have much else to add.

Hey there, thanks for the quick feedback.

So I don't have the points to add a 4th troop, and I was paying for the cultists anyway as nurglings. So all we're really changing is calling belakor CSM. The cultists will most likely stay in reserve and walk on to an objective anyway. Or hang in ruins and counter charge a drop pod or something.

I'm kinda privy to the 40 daemonettes vs the hounds myself. Just out of curiosity, what sells you on the daemonette blobs? Just more target saturation? Not to mention, if they're running d6+3" with fleet they can keep up with the shrouding!

As for the warp dice. I do understand what you're saying, but I'm figuring 7+d6 warp dice should average about 10 dice a turn. Throw 6 into invis, and 3 into shrouding, then have 1 left over to try for a shriek here and there. Fatey will help getting spells off assuming the grimoire doesn't need to be rerolled

The thought was super fast pressure, with a bit of psychic support and the grimoire to toughen up my quick units.

I am a fan of multiple blob squads, and the Daemonettes can threaten AP2 and light armor (moreso when Belakor falls), as well as bask in Belakor's bubbles.

I just prefer the relative durability of Nurglings over cultists; plus, you can DS them if needed. Cultists always fail me unless they are zombified...But your mileage may vary.

 Thantos Kalev wrote:
I am a fan of multiple blob squads, and the Daemonettes can threaten AP2 and light armor (moreso when Belakor falls), as well as bask in Belakor's bubbles.

I just prefer the relative durability of Nurglings over cultists; plus, you can DS them if needed. Cultists always fail me unless they are zombified...But your mileage may vary.

I hear what you're saying. All in all though, at the end of the day the nurglings were just there to get me a third HQ, much like in this situation, the cultists are...

This probably going to end up being a resounding "DONT DO IT!!!", but how do you feel about droping Fatey, for a buff GUO? .... lol

All of the daemon fast attack units (plague drones, seekers, screamers) are great. They become excellent when you can buff them. The drones just need some 4+ area terrain (which should be somewhere on the board in your deployment zone or nearby) and they are happy as a clam. If you start to advance them up without cover, they will take 5+ saves and die. A herald with the FNP upgrade is great and he will never slow them down (unless you're in hammer and anvil but believe me he's always worth it). Screamers love Be'Lakor's shrouding.

I actually like your list a lot and I've been tinkering around with similar lists. I would probably have pink horrors as troops (extra warp charge and durable as all get out when they go to ground for like a 3+, re-rolling ones when in some nice cover)

The only negative for your list is that when you face ignores cover, you are boned. Unless you get both cursed earth and forewarning. But you have like 3 tries to get those 2 powers combined, so...not great odds. Half the reason why heralds of tzeentch and Nurgle are so great is because they give you a bunch of rolls to get the powers that you need to have a good invulnerable save (cursed earth, forewarning) and you also want things like prescience (hitting on 4's sucks!), endurance, and the warp charge to reliably cast all of these bad boys.

What I've settled on is Fateweaver as one HQ slot, then 4 heralds as the others (2 ML3 tzeentch on disks that go with screamers, and 2 ML2 Nurgle that go with plague drones). That's 14 WC right there. Doesn't leave room for Be'Lakor unless you do allies, and you'd need to double CAD to include the Thirster. But that's also like 1400 points of HQs if you do all 4 slots, so obviously no good. If you want to go with Be'Lakor and the thirster, I would just leave Fatey at home. Make the thirster your warlord and go for the warp storm trait (you'll get it 1/3 times with the re-roll). If you want to bring Fatey, go all the way with your psykers and get the most bang for your buck with the heralds.

A Grimoire-bearing D-thirster is honestly not a great idea; you need your Grimoire bearer to be as survivable as possible (the two options for this are "FMC in the air" or "Herald buried in a unit"), but by definition, a D-thirster never wants to be in the air so he can assault. Pretty much the only ground-based MC Grimoire bearer that's even mildly viable is a GUO.

In the first list, for 15 more points (drop two Daemonettes?) than the D-thirster, you could instead do:

Herald of Nurgle: FNP Locus, Grimoire, L2 Psyker
Herald of Slaanesh: Beguilement Locus, Greater Gift, Lesser Gift, L2 Psyker

You've gained a ton of guaranteed survivability on your Plague Drones (FNP on them is incredible), a much better location for your Grimoire (buried in your most survivable unit), two rolls on Biomancy (a great table), two rolls on Telepathy (an even better table), four Warp Charge (to feed Fateweaver or Be'lakor even if the Heralds hit no good powers), and a metric ton of offense for your Seekers (re-rolls to hit, complete control over Challenges, seven S5 AP2 attacks on the charge). You'd also gain the flexibility to roll those four additional Psychic powers on Daemonology if the matchup calls for summoning--you currently have no flexibility at all in your Psychic rolls, with Be'lakor and Fateweaver both being set in stone.

You're also putting yourself in a position where, with three rolls each on Biomancy and Telepathy (two on the Heralds, one on Fateweaver), you're getting pretty likely to have either Endurance or a second Invisibility in most games. That gives you some on-demand survivability you can apply to the Daemonettes or Plague Drones if required.

DJ3 wrote:
A Grimoire-bearing D-thirster is honestly not a great idea; you need your Grimoire bearer to be as survivable as possible (the two options for this are "FMC in the air" or "Herald buried in a unit"), but by definition, a D-thirster never wants to be in the air so he can assault. Pretty much the only ground-based MC Grimoire bearer that's even mildly viable is a GUO.

In the first list, for 15 more points (drop two Daemonettes?) than the D-thirster, you could instead do:

Herald of Nurgle: FNP Locus, Grimoire, L2 Psyker
Herald of Slaanesh: Beguilement Locus, Greater Gift, Lesser Gift, L2 Psyker

You've gained a ton of guaranteed survivability on your Plague Drones (FNP on them is incredible), a much better location for your Grimoire (buried in your most survivable unit), two rolls on Biomancy (a great table), two rolls on Telepathy (an even better table), four Warp Charge (to feed Fateweaver or Be'lakor even if the Heralds hit no good powers), and a metric ton of offense for your Seekers (re-rolls to hit, complete control over Challenges, seven S5 AP2 attacks on the charge). You'd also gain the flexibility to roll those four additional Psychic powers on Daemonology if the matchup calls for summoning--you currently have no flexibility at all in your Psychic rolls, with Be'lakor and Fateweaver both being set in stone.

You're also putting yourself in a position where, with three rolls each on Biomancy and Telepathy (two on the Heralds, one on Fateweaver), you're getting pretty likely to have either Endurance or a second Invisibility in most games. That gives you some on-demand survivability you can apply to the Daemonettes or Plague Drones if required.

Right I gotcha, I just really wanna play with my D thirster, he is another threat on the table, plus will be invisible. And worst come to worst comes to worst he jinks for a 4+, losing the grimoire isn't the biggest deal when Belakor will shroud things, and m flyers will be left with 2+ jinks, and my fast attacks 3+ cover if they're in ANY terrain.

DJ3 How do you keep the herald with the drones?

They move so fast how do you keep him up? Deepstrike them?

Dalymiddleboro,

Don't forget that you can cast shrouding to give the thirster 2+ jink a long as he's within 6" of Be'Lakor. Requires less WC than invisibility.

 Icelord wrote:
DJ3 How do you keep the herald with the drones?

They move so fast how do you keep him up? Deepstrike them?

It's a lot easier than you think. You basically conga-line the unit as they move. What slingshots the character up is assault. The drones will fairly reliably be able to make a turn 2 charge if you move up aggressively, except in hammer and anvil of course, and once the assault is made, the herald moves the charge distance plus 3" pile in plus 3" end of combat pile in, then 6" closer each turn. Usually he is able to swing on your opponent's turn (say bottom of 2 if you went first and charged on turn 2).

The same principle works with Necron wraiths and Orikan the diviner. Make them canoptek harvest wraiths and give them that sweet sweet RP (increased to 4+ with Orikan, even outside of the Decurion) and you have a squad with a 3++ re-rolling ones as long as the Spyder is alive. And those things are tougher to kill than most people think. Even if you don't do canoptek harvest, I throw a destroyer lord in the unit with the nightmare shroud. Re-rollable 2+, then he can just look out sir the nasty stuff to the wraiths (or take a phase shifter) and have yourself a nice little durable deathstar.

Though that wasn't specific to daemons, the point is if you think outside the box a little, you can have some spectacular results with a lot fewer drawbacks than you might think

 luke1705 wrote:
Dalymiddleboro,

Don't forget that you can cast shrouding to give the thirster 2+ jink a long as he's within 6" of Be'Lakor. Requires less WC than invisibility.

 Icelord wrote:
DJ3 How do you keep the herald with the drones?

They move so fast how do you keep him up? Deepstrike them?

It's a lot easier than you think. You basically conga-line the unit as they move. What slingshots the character up is assault. The drones will fairly reliably be able to make a turn 2 charge if you move up aggressively, except in hammer and anvil of course, and once the assault is made, the herald moves the charge distance plus 3" pile in plus 3" end of combat pile in, then 6" closer each turn. Usually he is able to swing on your opponent's turn (say bottom of 2 if you went first and charged on turn 2).

The same principle works with Necron wraiths and Orikan the diviner. Make them canoptek harvest wraiths and give them that sweet sweet RP (increased to 4+ with Orikan, even outside of the Decurion) and you have a squad with a 3++ re-rolling ones as long as the Spyder is alive. And those things are tougher to kill than most people think. Even if you don't do canoptek harvest, I throw a destroyer lord in the unit with the nightmare shroud. Re-rollable 2+, then he can just look out sir the nasty stuff to the wraiths (or take a phase shifter) and have yourself a nice little durable deathstar.

Though that wasn't specific to daemons, the point is if you think outside the box a little, you can have some spectacular results with a lot fewer drawbacks than you might think

Absolutely, haven't forgotten that. However, imagine his durability with invis and shrouding! and the rest of the units getting shrouded as well!

I think the list seems solid against most things!

It'll work to a degree, I just think you're going to find that you're drastically overvaluing cover saves. It's not just Ignores Cover that will burn you (though it certainly will); the downside to a lot of this stuff (particularly the Seekers) is that you're going to take a ton of casualties even after you reach assault, even against things that aren't necessarily CC-focused units.

I played a Seeker blob toward the end of 6th--the reason I eventually stopped was that I got tired of picking up a handful of my own models on my own turn just because I wanted to move through some cover (which you're actually designing your army to favor, with the need for cover saves). You put 20 Seekers into terrain and then Run them and you're going to lose ~5 models just from the DT tests without the Grimoire; that's a quarter of your unit gone for nothing.

Something as basic as standard Marines can give Seekers problems if they don't go bananas with the Rends--the lack of grenades and the T3/5+ is a huge downside in combat against just about anything, and practically guarantees you'll lose models in every round of combat, even against Tau or Guardsmen.

That's the main source of concern over your Grimoire placement--maybe the Plague Drones don't need it, and your FMCs can keep themselves alive to a degree, but a Seeker blob just doesn't work very well without Grimoire coverage. So if you're deadset on the D-thirster, maybe consider moving away from the Seekers instead. Flesh Hounds are mostly just disposable wounds by comparison, Screamers have Jink and far better mobility, you could even double-down on Plague Drones.

Screamers are definitely a lot better than the seekers because not only can they jink on their own and avoid the dangerous terrain if need be, but they have much more reliable and farther-ranged offense (not to mention more versatile) plus the re-rolling of 1's for all saves cannot be underestimated. Forewarning plus CE means you're taking a 3++ re-rolling ones. That is nonsense and you can still grim something else.

I would recommend the first list, except I would figure out a way to squeeze a herald in there, instead of having the thirster holding an exalted gift. You really want to toss 2 greater gifts onto the thirster to give him a chance for reroll invuln and 4+ FNP. Giving him that book will make him a glowing beacon of a target, more than he already is like DJ3 said. If you did that and tossed a herald of nurgle into the unit of plague drones with a FNP loci, that makes you drones super survivable while doing a congo line as well.

Also note you will be rolling with WC roll +7 charges initial game. This is a decent amount, but if you were to meet up with either grey knights (with their psychic hood shenanigans) or what most imperial armies are doing nowadays with a cullexus in a drop pod, you are going to have a very rough time. You need to put stuff into your list to give survivability outside of your psychic powers for the inevitable anti psyker warfare that some armies have.