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So with him being out, a few people who played him awhile ago plan to pick up the box and I know ill have to face him. I have had the worst time trying to deal with the rat lord. I have read through pull my finger on any tips but looking for others players advice on a possible master that can really shut him down?

Could you post what's in the crews you're usually up against?

First of all, I'm going to assume 50SS, which is what summoners are balanced for.

What faction are you playing?

Hamelin is a very strong master, who is obnoxious to kill, will almost always out-activate you, can can pull of some stupid combos (like a guaranteed Killjoy strike).

His crew really relies on him, usually one beater, and Nix. The rats kind of build up and do their own thing.

For Nix: Kill him at range/with cast actions. Masters like Levi, Sonnia, Raspy, and Wong can delete him from the table.

Blasts work well against his entire crew, wiping out Rats, stolen, Nix, and whatever gets too close pretty easily. It's very easy to target a Rat and get a blast onto whatever you need.

For Hamelin: Kill the Stolen first. He can't do his obnoxious tricks (especially with Survivalist) without any Stolen around. Isolate him and focus him down (or just take away his toys/beaters).

Remember that the cycle is - Rats -> Rat King -> Rat Catcher + Rat. The Obedient Wretch, Hamelin, and Rat Catchers are where more Rats will come from. You need 4 or more Rats (friendly and enemy rats near the activating rat all get sucked in, even if it's more than 4). Popping one or two off with a long-range sniper can really slow down your opponent, but competitive Hamelin players usually will have more than enough to start (Hire 2-3, the Wretch, and a Stolen to sack).

Blight doesn't really become a huge threat unless your opponent really works to stack it up. A little condition removal can shut it down, but don't go out of your way to hire condition removal (I cringe when people drop 7SS on Johan and have no synergy for him).

As for best master to fight him? A lot of masters are viable against him, but blasts and auras/pulses help a lot.
If you give me a faction, I can give you some more specific advice.

Yea we do standad 50SS, Standard missions

Currently I have...

Friekorps - All models in theme, just not all built nor have I played them yet
Nico - Most undead models avaliable in plastic
Lucius - Starter and 3 Riflemen (This was one army I used agaisnt him and got lured and murdered hard)
Raspy - All avaliable plastics for her theme in Arcanists (plus ice dancers). Hardly play her though
Tara - Starter

Got Kiari box and her supporting models on the way as I found a great deal.

If Sonnia is the way to go to objective to picking her up. whatever it takes to smash Hamelins face is what ill do!

This is just theory, but Raspy should be able to threaten Hamelin et al. Her blasts are second only to Sonnia's in effectiveness, and she has the potential to get free extra attacks on the right trigger. Silent Ones can take out the Stolen as well as pressure your opponent's hand, making it even easier to Raspy to nuke the board. If your opponent knows what you're trying to do he'll give Nix the upgrade that nullifies damage from blasts and pulses so you'll either have to kill him first or you can summon ice pillars to block his aura from saving your intended targets.

str00dles1 wrote:
Yea we do standad 50SS, Standard missions

Currently I have...

Friekorps - All models in theme, just not all built nor have I played them yet
Nico - Most undead models avaliable in plastic
Lucius - Starter and 3 Riflemen (This was one army I used agaisnt him and got lured and murdered hard)
Raspy - All avaliable plastics for her theme in Arcanists (plus ice dancers). Hardly play her though
Tara - Starter

Got Kiari box and her supporting models on the way as I found a great deal.

If Sonnia is the way to go to objective to picking her up. whatever it takes to smash Hamelins face is what ill do!

I'm just going down the list (You've got some of my favorite masters).

Von Schill: Hannah and Anna are amazing beater models that combo well. They're absolutely worth the 20SS they'll run and I Pay Better makes them even better. Freikorps Trappers (I like to run 2) are fantastic for their cost and can pick off key models in your opponent's crew, but try to keep them away from Hamelin's Pipes. Regular Freikorpsmen are very meh, but YMMV. Don't use Specialists unless you've got a plan for them. The Librarian can be incredibly obnoxious with Hannah/Anna and Von Schill's Hard to Kill ability You dropped my super hard to kill henchman to one wound finally? Let me double heal, and then have Hanna copy the heal for good measure!. Plus, her blasts are great against Hamelin.

Nicodem: Belles, Belles, Belles. They are one of the strongest models in the game for what they do and they can pull models away and cause trouble (I suggest targeting the rats that have already activated first, to get them away, but timing is everything). Nico also loves to drop blasts on his own guys and enemies, which is what you want to do here. Mortimer can do it too. Chiaki is great for condition removal/generally being annoying/scheme running.

Lucius: Lucius suffers from his box models being pretty meh (This may change with hopeful Wave 4 buffs). While a gunline works alright, Hamelin can take it apart pretty easily. Definitely consider Austringers (which are absolutely amazing and arguably broken), a Pathfinder (who can lock rats down so they can't move around, as well as put out those lovely blasts), and maybe a Doppleganger (just read her card, you won't regret it). Lawyers are pretty great, but Dashel suffers from being very static right now.

Rasputina: Blasts, Blasts, Blasts. You've got sturdy models that can bomb rats to death when they die (Ice Gamin), a solid beater (Ice Golem), a mobility boosting henchman (Snowstorm), Acolytes can spam slow/damage and be a pain, Blessed are pretty decent in melee, and a Silent One is just another amazing model that can heal your crew too.

Tara: I run her with Obliteration Symbiote, I pay Better, and sometimes a Death Marshal, Karina (summoning Upgrade), Hannah and Anna (Or you can go with Bishop, Taelor, or whatever works for the situation), and 2 Void Wretches. It works pretty well if you're comfortable with her.

The most important piece of advice I can give is: Stick to the strats and schemes! Don't build your crew just to kill a Hamelin crew, what if your opponent decides not to play him in the end? Hamelin is very weak in Reckoning, but is strong in scheme marker schemes, board control, and against Assassinate. If you can't just shut him down, throw a couple tarpit models at him to keep him locked up for a little bit while you do strats/schemes.

Reading Dr. What's post, I realized that I meant that December Acolytes are good for picking off key models and pressuring your opponent's hand; Silent Ones are totally different.

Lucius gunlines get picked apart? Try double trapper, double stringer, double doppleganger and a malifaux child. Four range 18 shots that ignore LoS and 3 Trapper shots. Hamelin himself hates that, and it can take the crew apart given the right target prioritisation and positioning.

Sadly doppelgangers are rare 1 :-( I'm not sure Lucius is ever the answer. I want to love him, but he's just so much hard work.

It looks like you've got a good spread of masters, maybe try Raspy? Although Nix with hollow is a pain against your blasts, between Raspy handing out paralyse and acolytes handing out slow you should be able to really put a spanner in the works. Also scheme choice makes a big difference. Work out what you can achieve even if everything goes right for Hamelin and the board is covered in a tide of rats.

 grrrfranky wrote:
Sadly doppelgangers are rare 1 :-( I'm not sure Lucius is ever the answer. I want to love him, but he's just so much hard work.

It looks like you've got a good spread of masters, maybe try Raspy? Although Nix with hollow is a pain against your blasts, between Raspy handing out paralyse and acolytes handing out slow you should be able to really put a spanner in the works. Also scheme choice makes a big difference. Work out what you can achieve even if everything goes right for Hamelin and the board is covered in a tide of rats.

Slightly off topic, but what are you running with Lucius?

He's a bit suit-dependent, but it doesn't really bother him. He's very strong with some practice (like any master).

 Dr. What wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Sadly doppelgangers are rare 1 :-( I'm not sure Lucius is ever the answer. I want to love him, but he's just so much hard work.

It looks like you've got a good spread of masters, maybe try Raspy? Although Nix with hollow is a pain against your blasts, between Raspy handing out paralyse and acolytes handing out slow you should be able to really put a spanner in the works. Also scheme choice makes a big difference. Work out what you can achieve even if everything goes right for Hamelin and the board is covered in a tide of rats.

Slightly off topic, but what are you running with Lucius?

He's a bit suit-dependent, but it doesn't really bother him. He's very strong with some practice (like any master).

Austringers, hunters, pathfinder, often doppelganger and maybe graves. Then add witchling stalker/death marshal/lawyer/riflemen depending on schemes, opposition. I just find it frustrating that everything needs suits, wyrd decided that letting him order austringers would be too much, you've got a chance to paralyse your own guys, everything is minions only.... the list goes on and on. None of these things are horrible on their own, but it all adds up to the point where I just won't use him any more. When you compare him to someone like Colette, he just flat out sucks. They're meant to do comparable things (ordering their crew around) but she is just that much better at it. Lucius has a great model, and a great looking crew box, but he's among the candidates for the worst master in the game, especially in guild.

This rant has been brought to you by the "I want to love Lucius" Club

 grrrfranky wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Sadly doppelgangers are rare 1 :-( I'm not sure Lucius is ever the answer. I want to love him, but he's just so much hard work.

It looks like you've got a good spread of masters, maybe try Raspy? Although Nix with hollow is a pain against your blasts, between Raspy handing out paralyse and acolytes handing out slow you should be able to really put a spanner in the works. Also scheme choice makes a big difference. Work out what you can achieve even if everything goes right for Hamelin and the board is covered in a tide of rats.

Slightly off topic, but what are you running with Lucius?

He's a bit suit-dependent, but it doesn't really bother him. He's very strong with some practice (like any master).

Austringers, hunters, pathfinder, often doppelganger and maybe graves. Then add witchling stalker/death marshal/lawyer/riflemen depending on schemes, opposition. I just find it frustrating that everything needs suits, wyrd decided that letting him order austringers would be too much, you've got a chance to paralyse your own guys, everything is minions only.... the list goes on and on. None of these things are horrible on their own, but it all adds up to the point where I just won't use him any more. When you compare him to someone like Colette, he just flat out sucks. They're meant to do comparable things (ordering their crew around) but she is just that much better at it. Lucius has a great model, and a great looking crew box, but he's among the candidates for the worst master in the game, especially in guild.

This rant has been brought to you by the "I want to love Lucius" Club

Try using less enforcers and more minions. I run Lucius and, more often than not, I love playing him. That being said, comparing him to Colette is like saying Colette is worse than Levi because Colette can't guarantee one dead model per turn. They are both different. Colette is a movement based scheme runner. Lucius is a force multiplier. He builds a crew of weakish minions and makes them do a lot more than they should. He does require some finesse to use, but once you find a combo that clicks, it works well.

He is also a good match for Hamelin, as even though you get out activated, you don't really care as you can activate your riflemen, austringers, trappers, doppleganger, pathfinders, and etc more than once per turn. Maximise on minions, minimum upgrades makes lucius work well.

 grrrfranky wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:
Sadly doppelgangers are rare 1 :-( I'm not sure Lucius is ever the answer. I want to love him, but he's just so much hard work.

It looks like you've got a good spread of masters, maybe try Raspy? Although Nix with hollow is a pain against your blasts, between Raspy handing out paralyse and acolytes handing out slow you should be able to really put a spanner in the works. Also scheme choice makes a big difference. Work out what you can achieve even if everything goes right for Hamelin and the board is covered in a tide of rats.

Slightly off topic, but what are you running with Lucius?

He's a bit suit-dependent, but it doesn't really bother him. He's very strong with some practice (like any master).

Austringers, hunters, pathfinder, often doppelganger and maybe graves. Then add witchling stalker/death marshal/lawyer/riflemen depending on schemes, opposition. I just find it frustrating that everything needs suits, wyrd decided that letting him order austringers would be too much, you've got a chance to paralyse your own guys, everything is minions only.... the list goes on and on. None of these things are horrible on their own, but it all adds up to the point where I just won't use him any more. When you compare him to someone like Colette, he just flat out sucks. They're meant to do comparable things (ordering their crew around) but she is just that much better at it. Lucius has a great model, and a great looking crew box, but he's among the candidates for the worst master in the game, especially in guild.

This rant has been brought to you by the "I want to love Lucius" Club

I was a member of that club in 1.5 and fought constantly over him in the beta.

Paralyzing your own men? First, have a Guild Lawyer in your targeted bubble. Guild Lawyers are amazing on their own and they're very versatile. Second, bring some condition removal if you're that worried. Witchling Stalkers are amazing for their cost and do plenty of damage too (and when they die, they pulse out damage to kill rats!). Third, you don't have to make them take the horror duel. Don't risk it if you don't have the cards/AP to spare or if there's a decent chance of the black joker.

Yes, he is very suit dependent on a couple things, but his "Secret Assets/Objectives" upgrades are very meh and not actually needed. If you do need a stone, don't be afraid to hit one of your own models to get the refund. Take a Wastrel, the Scribe, or the Governor's Proxy and just wack it when you need the stones. WIth the Wastrel or the Proxy, you can also splash out a bit of healing to make up for it.

Is Colette's stone nicer? Yeah, but Colette is boring to play . Prompt is a very strong ability, but Lucius has a very strong hiring pool and can be just as versatile while doing more damage. Colette is more about positioning your crew and scheme markers, while Lucius can do that, but is more focused on getting the most damage out of his crew. It's getting the most out of one model vs. getting the most out of a variety of synergistic models. You really have to have a feel for the razor's edge with Lucius and it starts with crew selection and strats/schemes.

Austringers were barred from Lucius because it was very easy to make your opponent lose their whole hand in the first two activations with practically no counterplay. It was one of the largest issues in the early betas.

Thanks for the advice. I've tried most of it before and never gotten him to click. I'll have to try again at some point, although that's a little way down the list.