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I am working on a unit of Wraithguard-like models to use as Grey Knight "counts-as" for my Eldar army. These would be like specialized anti-daemon Wraithblades. Axes=Halberds and I will have wrist-mounted shuriken catapults as "storm-bolters". I am not actually using WraithGuard models, though, just the arm bits and weapons. The main bodies will be Necrons warriors, heavily converted. I want them to look like slightly smaller, yet more armoured Wraithguard.

My big questions is: What could represent a Hammer? Eldar would not use such a clumsy weapon, yet I could see using something large and powerful that would have 2x Str & unwieldly. The idea I keep coming back to is using WraithLord arms. This might give a "power fist" look, but when I place it together on the model, it just looks goofy. Like an Eldar gorilla.

Any suggestions?

Suggestion stick to things with the same aesthetic crude boxy imperial amour does not mix at high tech organic eldar shapes.


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If you want to convert eldar use: Dark eldar, High elves, Dark elves or if you are feeling adventurous wood elves instead.

How about something simplistic such as a large rod or baton? Maybe some soul gems on it or something else to emphasis the idea that it's emanating extreme force?
A large staff would be pretty cool. Like as tall maybe taller than them with kinda weighted/bulky ends.

I'm only speaking for myself here but I think most people would be cool with that as a TH conversion.

Your idea sounds pretty cool, I hope it goes well for you. Maybe you'll post some pictures when you're done? Or, hell, WIP pics are good too. Dakkadakka loves pictures!

A spiked mace, with a small mace head and big spikes?

 Clang wrote:
A spiked mace, with a small mace head and big spikes?

aka, a morningstar (contrary to what many sources - including the WHFB rules - say)

Perhaps make the spikes look like force projections emanating from the head?

For a 2x Str, Unwieldy weapon I'd honestly go for a beefier Scorpions Claw or a giant sword (Think an Eldar version of the Eviscerator).

But I am interested as to how your models turn out, do upload some pictures some time.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F0rFvmIf8dc/VJBXEbplODI/AAAAAAAABCg/5O-NVQ-_k98/s1600/WraithKnights.jpg

These are the Wraithlords riding jetbikes. I converted them a while ago to use a WraithKnights, before they were GC's. The gun is magnetized and I plan on making a gun that has a Heavy Psilencer barrel (I think it looks better than the Psycannon) with a large flamer underneath to represent the Incinerator.

are you planning something like this ? If you are they would be great wraith guards but no where near good "count as" grey knight terminators




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If I had to make a terminator out of a Eldar themed model I would go for Maugan-Ra for the body and switch the weapons for the Grey knight ones as a base for the conversion.
He might just be bulky enough to give that GK terminator feel. I am still not sure if it would work and it will not be cheap but it seems miles ahead of all other eldar to terminator ideas.

I agree completely that Maugan-Ra screams "Eldar-Terminator". If I wasn't going with a Wraith-construct theme, I would definitely go with Dark Reaper style Terminators.

The thing about wraith-bone is that it is dense and flexible. Very different from the clumsy/bulky metal/plastic (adamantium/ceramite?) armour of the Imperium. I am not wanting to match the aesthetics of the Grey Knights, but rather what an Eldar wraith unit that is T4 with a 2+ would look like.

To me, T6/3+ is fairly on par with T4/2+. There are obvious situations where they are quite different, but overall it seems similar. My idea is to make them slightly thinner than WG to make them seem like T4, yet have a few more armour plates to give the look of 2+. They will have smaller heads and large shoulders as well.

In the end they will be taller than Termies and on 40mm bases, which really is the most important thing.
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The biggest challenge for me is using the Grey Knight weapons. They obviously don't look Eldar, yet I want them to. I also want them to look WYSIWYG. I want to use wrist mounted shuriken cats as stormbolters, axes as halberds, modified D-scythe as a Psycannon, etc.

 Galef wrote:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F0rFvmIf8dc/VJBXEbplODI/AAAAAAAABCg/5O-NVQ-_k98/s1600/WraithKnights.jpg

These are the Wraithlords riding jetbikes.

Why? I mean, to me, they don't look like suitable stand ins for Wraithknights at all. Size is all wrong, aesthetic is all wrong. Really interesting conversion work, however. It's a neat vision that is pretty well-executed, but I just don't see "Wraithknight" coming from them.

It's all opinion, anyway. I just don't like most "counts as" ideas. They are usually far fetched ideas (at best) that end up with confused opponents repeatedly asking what they are supposed to be. Well, in many cases, that is, not necessarily in your case. I don't understand why you would make Eldar Terminators to "count as" Grey Knights, when Grey Knights already exist. Plus, they already look like Terminators. Eldar don't have Terminators. Or Grey Knights. If Grey Knights were to join an Eldar force, they wouldn't dress out like the home team. They would wear their own gear.

Again, your Vyper riding Wraithlords are pretty well done and look pretty cool. Thumbs up on them!


Ghidorah

@ Oldzoggy & Ghidorah:
I think both of your opinions are the key to me understanding why someone would have issues with my conversions (which is what I am trying to avoid). My perspective isn't trying to "Match the Silhouette or Aesthetics" of a given unit. I am instead trying to represent the RULES from an allied unit according to the aesthetic of the my main army.

When I was making my Wraithlords on Vypers, Wraithknights were still MCs and basically just double a Wraithlord (in wounds, movement, points, etc) So I approached the project as "What could make a Wraithlord look like it has double the wounds, movement, etc".

The concept of allying GK's wasn't to ally GK's wearing Eldar P.J.s, but how could I make an Eldar unit represent GK rules (mainly because my Wraithlord riding jetbikes don't fit the role of WK, now that they are GCs) So I had the idea to use them as DKs, which I have to field 1 troop and HQ to stay battle focused. Hence why I am trying to convert Eldar Terminators.
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I have 2 new ideas for a Hammer. A) Wraithlord hand (possibly forearm too) with a Chainsword attached like a chainfist, or B) a large double axe. I think the double axe could work because I am now making the halberds using the Wraithblade sword blades attached to the axe handles.

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 Galef wrote:
@ Oldzoggy & Ghidorah:
I think both of your opinions are the key to me understanding why someone would have issues with my conversions (which is what I am trying to avoid). My perspective isn't trying to "Match the Silhouette or Aesthetics" of a given unit. I am instead trying to represent the RULES from an allied unit according to the aesthetic of the my main army.

Yup you got it. If you are really trying to avoid it you should avoid these types of conversions ;_)

 Galef wrote:
When I was making my Wraithlords on Vypers, Wraithknights were still MCs and basically just double a Wraithlord (in wounds, movement, points, etc) So I approached the project as "What could make a Wraithlord look like it has double the wounds, movement, etc".

Ah-ha! That makes sense, then. I guess I misread you originally. I was envisioning somebody setting those down in front of me tomorrow and telling me they were Wraithknights.

 Galef wrote:
I am instead trying to represent the RULES from an allied unit according to the aesthetic of the my main army.

This is rather confusing to me. Maybe it's just me. Let's pretend it's not, for the sake of conversation.
I'm reading that you're playing an Eldar army with a squad of Grey Knights from the allies list. Then, I'm reading that you're trying to make "Eldar-y" Grey Knights so that they look more like the rest of your army, but still completely and obviously not from the existing Eldar range. Seemingly evidenced by the following quote:

 Galef wrote:
...but how could I make an Eldar unit represent GK rules...Hence why I am trying to convert Eldar Terminators.

Which brings me back to my original point of, why? There are Grey Knight models to go along with the Grey Knight rules that cause no confusion in opponents at all. Moreover, Eldar don't have "Terminators," so modeling some seems odd to me. It seems like you're trying to keep an Eldar aesthetic to your army but, in doing so, you're creating stuff that is completely opposite and almost as un-Eldar as you can get. plus, Eldar don't have anything with Grey Knight rules because they aren't Grey Knights. They play nothing like Grey Knights (or any Marines, for that matter).


Having said that, if this is the only real "counts as" unit in your army, I would imagine that most people wouldn't experience the confusion I spoke about before. That argument is more of a blanket anti-"counts as" on a conceptual level. Meaning, I am 95% against "counts as" because most people make stupid gak, and lots of it. Your idea seems innocent enough, albeit challenging! I doubt I would have any issues about playing against it and I would certainly admire your work if you did the conversions well. However, I would still not be able to get past the whole, "But there's already Grey Knight Terminator models" mindset.

If this is purely a modeling challenge and skill-honing task, then god speed, sir! Just forget everything I said before! lol



Ghidorah

To clarify it a bit more with an example

Rules wise a destroyer lord is just a necron overlord with a cool close combat weapon and a necron pattern Jetpack.
I would be perfectly fine with this being a mad destroyer lord especially if he got the correct weapon layout.


Triarch praetorians are necrons with jump infantry so you could argue that you could just stick the jump part of a triarch praetorian on a overlord and you would have a kickass destroyer lord.


I don't like those second type conversions at all. There are two big reasons why I don't like it enough to protest against it when my opponent does this.

1. I recognize models by recognizing the aesthetics. If it looks like something I automatically assume it would be something like that. .
Recognizing bits, reconstructing the rules and then extrapolating or remembering what models they should be isn't something that my mind does automatically. I just recognizes the most obvious parts and classifies it as such when I am not paying too much attention to it. I have to actively remind myself that that model is really something else. I don't enjoy doing this, and I am actually quite bad at it. For example when I don't have the points for plasma guns and I field a squad of "no melta proxy marines" I run the risk of accidentally shooting my non existing plasma in turn 3 -5. In the case of the destroyer lord I run the risk of forgetting that that necron overlord isn't just a overlord on later in the game. These kinds of mistakes can make a big difference in some games and really bug me out if they do.

2. Conversions like these have serious impact on the game. Line of sigh works differently etc. and it opens the discussion: "You can't see it but the model is really this high etc". I really don't like to have these kinds of discussions during a game. The whole reason why we have models instead of paper clips is to avoid this.


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Perhaps a bit out of context but I just looked at our site and you do not only have a lot of cool conversions Including the star wars ones :_D
but you also have some nice Grey Knights. http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.nl/2015/01/grey-knights-again.html

My advise. Convert more cool stuff and just use those nicely painted grey knights you already have as grey knights in your army. This will save you and your opponents a lot of frustration.

The problem with just using Grey knights as Grey Knights is they look like Grey Knights is what he is saying, or even worse, just more marines. He wants to keep the Eldar theme/aesthetic while adding a counts as GK contingent. I can understand wanting to either keep a similar theme/aesthetic or to specifically NOT use models even if you want to use that army (or a detachment). Personally, I like how nids play, but I have never gotten excited about most of the models and fluff, but were I ever to start an exodite army that would be the ruleset I would probably work from, especially to keep it distinct from CWE/DE/Corsairs/Harlequins. To me, its also far more jarring to have two wildly disparate armies on the table as allies than to have one army that merges elements of both as long as all units are distinct and identifiable. I like the options and idea of allied detachments, but I hate seeing it spread out on the table. I don't see the problem with starting with a wraith construct for power armor/terminator armor and working from there, they are bulky and slow looking to start with, especially some of the older models, and the farther and unique the end result is from a normal wraithguard/blade the better. starting with dire avengers on the other hand, would certainly be a bad start.

I think the big rules to keep in mind are: do the units fit the rules (ie, mode of locomotion is correct, do they look sufficiently bulky, are they on the right types of base)? are the units visually distinct from other units (IE sorta different wraithguard and regular wraith guard in the same army representing two totally different things would be a huge no no)? are you gaining an advantage over the original models with your counts as (bigger base, smaller base, smaller model etc; if it results in an advantage on the table for game play over the original model proceed with caution)? are you playing the same people one weekend with a unit as a normal book unit and the next week its a counts as (this would certainly lead to confusion for some people)? Are options/selections/leaders/etc clearly defined (everyone hates the teleporting sergeant or the invisible powerfist that jumps around the table, WYSIWYG becomes very important)? and finally, rule of cool (does it LOOK good or does it look like you slapped a wraithguard head on a terminator body and called it good with a coat of primer).

Of course, you probably want to bring a back up list just in case you hit someone with a real problem with it and you really do just wanna play that evening.

 Ghidorah wrote:

Which brings me back to my original point of, why? There are Grey Knight models to go along with the Grey Knight rules that cause no confusion in opponents at all. Moreover, Eldar don't have "Terminators," so modeling some seems odd to me. It seems like you're trying to keep an Eldar aesthetic to your army but, in doing so, you're creating stuff that is completely opposite and almost as un-Eldar as you can get. plus, Eldar don't have anything with Grey Knight rules because they aren't Grey Knights. They play nothing like Grey Knights (or any Marines, for that matter).

Having said that, if this is the only real "counts as" unit in your army, I would imagine that most people wouldn't experience the confusion I spoke about before. That argument is more of a blanket anti-"counts as" on a conceptual level. Meaning, I am 95% against "counts as" because most people make stupid gak, and lots of it. Your idea seems innocent enough, albeit challenging! I doubt I would have any issues about playing against it and I would certainly admire your work if you did the conversions well. However, I would still not be able to get past the whole, "But there's already Grey Knight Terminator models" mindset.

If this is purely a modeling challenge and skill-honing task, then god speed, sir! Just forget everything I said before! lol



Ghidorah

Back to OP's question, I would suggest a scepter. Very similar to a morningstar however the spikes are more dark eldar IMO. A scepter fits the elongated aesthetic of the eldar and also may justify the additional power.

sk8brdr540 wrote:
Back to OP's question, I would suggest a scepter. Very similar to a morningstar however the spikes are more dark eldar IMO. A scepter fits the elongated aesthetic of the eldar and also may justify the additional power.

Like a ball on a stick?

 Xendarc wrote:

sk8brdr540 wrote:
Back to OP's question, I would suggest a scepter. Very similar to a morningstar however the spikes are more dark eldar IMO. A scepter fits the elongated aesthetic of the eldar and also may justify the additional power.

Like a ball on a stick?

Spoiler:

This thing just screams Eldar to me

Jup that will avoid the confusion :\

In reference to your earlier comment about my Grey Knights, I have actually sold those. GKs as a solo army just don't fit my play style. I like the look of them and the rules are pretty cool, however they cant do MSU or be super fast (some units, yes but not the whole army).

This project started as a way to field my Wraithlords on Jetbikes without having to constantly explain why they "should" be acceptable WK stand-ins. I have actually never had anyone complain, but since WKs are just so good, I expect it will happen eventually. However, using them as DKs is a much more exceptable options since DKs are not as OP as WKs and the size is more appropriate.
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As for the Hammer alternative, I was playing around with some Eldar bits and I kind like the idea of using a WL forearm and hand with a scorpion chainsword attached (at the forearm). Hammers and Powerfists essentially have the same effect so it would be quite easy to identify the weapon with 2x str AP2.

I am going to be away from my computer for the weekend, but I will try to get some WIP pics up soon.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, it's been great!

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Here is what I have so far.

http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2016/01/eldar-terminators.html