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Hi,

I'd like to have your take on the charge rule through difficult terrain.

The charge rule states that if possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there is no such enemy model in reach, it must move into base contact with an enemy already engaged...

The rule for charging through difficult terrain states: If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining charge range.

Please look at the 3 scenarios attached.

The first scenario is a real game example. The charging unit was 1" away from the unit being charged. In order for all the units to be engaged, model C has to move through difficult terrain to reach unengaged model 1. As such, all charging models would attack at initiative 1 and the charge range would be reduced by 2. Right? Or it depends on the charge roll? If the charge roll was less than 7", would this be a charge through difficult terrain?

The second scenario is hypothetical and further "abuses" this rule. Would this be a charge through difficult terrain? If for example, the charge roll is 8", it allows model C to reach model 3 without touching the difficult terrain, and since no model touches the difficult terrain, would this still be a charge through difficult terrain? If models 1 and 2 are 13" away from model C, would this be a CTDT, knowing that no charging model will ever need to move through difficult terrain since models 1 and 2 are too far away?

Look at the third scenario. If you roll a 2" charge and you are 2" away from the enemy unit, no model has to move through difficult terrain so the charge is successful. But if you roll 3" on the dice, then model A has to reach for model 1 who is in difficult terrain, then the charge range is reduced to 1" so the charge fails. This is an extreme example obviously.

This is really tricky. Sorry my questions might not be clear, the more I read (and write) about this topic, my mind keeps changing. So I keep changing the text...

Looking at the rules, it seems like it really depends on the charge roll. So for scenario #1, a 6" roll would NOT be a CTDT, while a roll of 7" would be a CTDT (thus a 5" charge). Scenario #2 would never be a CTDT. Scenario #3 would not be a CTDT for a 2" roll, while a 3"+ roll would be a CTDT. But I might be way off.

What do you think?

Thanks

Ash

All three of those examples would be CTDT as per RAW. However, I would be fine with #2 not counting as CTDT.

Charging through difficult terrain has nothing to do with the moving the models section of charging, so everything about which models they need to base doesn't matter for this.

You determine if you're charging through difficult terrain before the roll. This is done by looking at the closest models to each charging model. If a straight line passes through terrain on any one model then it is a ctdt situation.

Scenario 1
B,d and g are closest to 3. None of them go through terrain.
A,c,e and f are closest to 2. A,c and e have clear paths, but f does clip the edge of the terrain(it was close, I used a ruler to check the lines).
This is Ctdt.

Scenario 2
All charging models are closest to either 3 or 4, all have straight paths.
Not ctdt

Scenario 3
C to 3 and b to 2 are both clear. I pulled out the ruler for a, and you managed to get it the same distance to both 1 and 2. There is nothing to cover this, so it would be a roll off. If 1 was closer to a it would be, if 2 was closer it wouldn't be.


After determining if the charge is successful, then you are obligated to move as you outlined above if successful.

Haha, I dont know why, but I was thinking the Green dots were the attackers... oops..

grazingshot wrote:
Charging through difficult terrain has nothing to do with the moving the models section of charging, so everything about which models they need to base doesn't matter for this. Except it does, and you describe why in your next sentence.

You determine if you're charging through difficult terrain before the roll. This is done by looking at the closest models to each charging model. If a straight line passes through terrain on any one model then it is a ctdt situation.

Scenario 1
B,d and g are closest to 3. None of them go through terrain.
A,c,e and f are closest to 2. A,c and e have clear paths, but f does clip the edge of the terrain(it was close, I used a ruler to check the lines).
This is Ctdt.

A has to charge 2.
B has to charge 3.
Now, C, D, E, F, or G has to charge 1, before any of the other 4 can charge 2 or 3. (Assuming there's enough distance on the dice, then they have permission to go at 2 or 3, but at this point CTDT has already been determined, so it's moot.) And since they are in a chokepoint between difficult terrain, it's a CTDT.
So in this situation, you have to roll a 1+ with a -2.


Scenario 2
All charging models are closest to either 3 or 4, all have straight paths.
Not ctdt

A has to charge 4.
B has to charge 6.
C has to charge 3.
E has to charge 5.
D has to charge 2. This causes CTDT.
H has to charge 1.
G, F can go for 4 and 6.
So, in this situation you need to roll a 2+ with a -2.

Scenario 3
C to 3 and b to 2 are both clear. I pulled out the ruler for a, and you managed to get it the same distance to both 1 and 2. There is nothing to cover this, so it would be a roll off. If 1 was closer to a it would be, if 2 was closer it wouldn't be.

This is the most text book case.
C has to charge 3.
B has to charge 2.
A has to charge 1. This causes CTDT.
You need to roll a 2+ with a -2.

After determining if the charge is successful, then you are obligated to move as you outlined above if successful.

2 important rules for CTDT.
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.
If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no such enemy models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no such enemy models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.

Never knew this. Another kick to the teeth for melee, assuming it had any teeth left to kick.

2 important rules for CTDT.
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.
If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no such enemy models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.

These are 2 separate things.

If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.

This part here is the important part for determining if you are charging through difficult terrain. Note that there is no mention of unengaged models here. You do not have to plan your entire charge before rolling. You only need to check whichever enemy model is closest to each charging model.

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no such enemy models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.

This part deals with after the charge is successful and tells us how to move our models now that the charge is taking place. Note, that in most cases before the roll is made, all enemy models are not already in base contact, so it would not make sense to include this line in your charging through terrain determination.

Agreed with grazingshot. We determine charging through difficult terrain on a charging model to nearest enemy model basis when determining charge range and apply any penalty at that time.

Necessarily then only if the charge is successful can we look at the rules under 'Move Initial Charger' and by that point it's not relevant if models move through terrain to reach an unengaged enemy model that may not be the nearest.

Then why does it say one or more models if it's only talking about the closest model for measuring distance?

Because each model measures to its closest. This can mean that multiple models are measuring to the same one, but you aren't required at this point to measure through terrain if there is a closer model to measure to.

Hi guys!

That's exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to see! However, I'm still not sure of the right answer.

If grazingshot is right, a CTDT is really only about looking at the closest enemy, without looking at the actual model the charging model will be moving to. Let's assume that in scenario #1, model F doesn't exist (the one causing CTDT). It means that when moving model C, it a) would move through difficult terrain to reach model 1 even though it's not a CTDT, or b) wouldn't follow the charge rules about engaging the maximum number of models. In either cases, I don't think that's right!

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Agreed with grazingshot. We determine charging through difficult terrain on a charging model to nearest enemy model basis when determining charge range and apply any penalty at that time.

Necessarily then only if the charge is successful can we look at the rules under 'Move Initial Charger' and by that point it's not relevant if models move through terrain to reach an unengaged enemy model that may not be the nearest.

How can you move through difficult terrain when charging if the charge is not a CTDT?

However, one thing that swings in grazingshot's favor, is (and I'm quoting my original post here):
- The charge rule states that if possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model [nothing is said about nearest model here]. If there is no such enemy model in reach, it must move into base contact with an enemy already engaged...
- The rule for charging through difficult terrain states: If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route [here it says nearest model], the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining charge range.

So yeah, that could solve it. But I don't think you can move a model through difficult terrain if it was not a CTDT.

But here's a twist!!!!!

In the second section of the CTDT, it says: If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the units's models must attack at Initiative step 1 [...]. Remember that charging models models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible.

So, it would mean that scenario #1 (without model F), would NOT be a CTDT but the charging unit would be attacking at Initiative 1 since a charging model would need move in difficult terrain to reach model 1 (to engage the maximum enemy models).

What do you think?

Any answer guys? I'm referring to my last post above. Thanks!

Roll 2d6. Find your charges distance. Compare charge distance to the rules required to charge. If any model has to move through DT to meet those rules, subtract 2. Reassess charge and begin movement if possible.