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Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

shyzo wrote:
very point-efficient tanks.
Let's address this point. Are the IG...err AM tanks point efficient? The short answer is no.

Let's take a look at the classic LRBT with HB sponsons and a HB hull. For a long time, this was the staple of the IG army.
This clocks in at 170 points for a heavily armored, slowing moving tank that is weak to assault with weak to moderate firepower.

The Guns
The battle cannon rolls to deviate 2/3 of the time. Out of those, it's going to deviate an average of 4". This might still hit some targets, but it means grouping is hard.
A smart opponent will also space his models so you will only hit 3-4 on a good shot, and perhaps even less when deviating. Let's say that 1/3 of the time no targets are hit, 1/3 of the time 4 targets are hit, and 1/3 of the time 3 targets are hit, for a total of 7/3 hits per round of shooting. Of those 5/6 will be wounded, resulting in 35/18 (just under 2) dead enemies per turn. With cover or FNP this number drops, but let's look at best case for right now.

The HB's will hit 1/6 of the time. Against MEQ they wound 2/3 of the time, with 1/3 failed saves. This means we can expect the following results.
(Number of Shots) * (To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Failed Saves)
9 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .3 dead MEQ per turn.
9 * 1/6 * 5/6 = 1 GEQ per turn.

In summary, the massive firepower of the LRBT equals ~2.3 dead MEQ per turn or ~3 GEQ per turn.
I normally try to avoid using 'earn their points back' but in this case it's a good measuring stick. Given a 14 point MEQ, in just over 5 turns of firing the LRBT will earn its points back in MEQ. It will never catch up to GEQ.

Comparison
Let's compare the LRBT firepower to a ravager. At 110 points, it has 3 disintegrator cannons.
9 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1 = 4 dead MEQ per turn.
At the same rate, the ravager will "Earn it's points back" in less than two turns.
To add the nail in this coffin, the Ravager is not exactly the 'most dakka unit in the game'. Scat bikes are even better.


The Armor
Next lets look at the toughness of the LRBT. AV 14 in the front and 13 on the sides is not bad. The biggest weakness IMHO is the AV10 rear. The LRBT fears marines stuffing krak grenades up it's ass, and that's the least of it's worries. Swooping hawks, knights, D weapons can overwhelm the LRBT.

As has been mentioned, they can also be glanced to death. This means that STR 7+ weapons can start racking up the glances on the side -- and STR 7 is not that uncommon.


'Emperor's Fist Armored Company'
This formation dramatically improves upon the LRBT. It increases the firepower by providing BS4, a significant boost.
It increases the durability by forcing your opponent to roll two dice when rolling damage effects.
This helps to make the LRBT more competitive. The increase of BS is more effective on the punisher gatling gun -- given that a 1" smaller deviation is not that great of an effect. To take a look our firepower ratio, we have this...punisher.
29 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4 dead MEQ per turn, earning it's points back in 2.6 turns! While still not on the level of the ravager, it's a heck of a lot better.

These are much better numbers -- but they are still not the best unit in the game by a long shot.


Why use the LRBT?
The biggest advantage I can see about the LRBT is the fact that there are thousands upon thousands in existence. You can find them on ebay, on craigslist, or dakka swap shot for cheap. In a game where 'He who spends the most $$$ wins', you can play for cheap.

LRBTs are also cool. Fielding 6 LRBT and 5 chimeras full of vets is just cool.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/14 13:36:20


 
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 master of ordinance wrote:
You forgot that hose three HB's are all firing snap shots if the main gun fired so it is actually 0.02 dead MEQ per turn.
Tanks for the catch. It has been edited.
Just for the record, the HBs still kill ~.3 MEQ per turn, not 0.02.

It also leads more value to the variant models of LRBT that do not use the battle cannon.
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 master of ordinance wrote:
My bad. Also that 0 is a ninja, it was meant to be 0.2.
I tend to find the Exterminators are the best. They are slightly cheaper than the others and have a decent amount of firepower and they can kill most vehicles with a couple of turns shooting on the flank.
Those also look really good as well. I think the choice is definitely between them and the punisher, given the rules for ordnance weapons. This is assuming the formation granting 4 BS -- which is the only way I can see to make them viable.

The exterminator looks like this vs MEQ
4 * 8/9 * 5/6 * 1/3 = ~1 dead MEQ per turn

The punisher cannon looks like this
20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~3 dead MEQ per turn.

The exterminator has STR 7 guns, meaning it can be used vs vehicles or high toughness targets as well. They are both good, but different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/14 14:14:46


 
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 drunken0elf wrote:
Lots of the problems Astra Militarum seems to be based around the cost in points. Bunch of stuff is overpriced.

I think it's like 55points for a bullgryn... top kek.
The problem is that unit costs do not properly reflect the modern meta. Sure, if your opponent is fielding bolters against you, a T5, 3 wound model for 40 points is not that bad. That's 13 points per wound. The problem is when your opponent has D weapons and tons of STR 6/7 shooting.

There are lots of examples of this. C:SM dreadnoughts still being valued at 100 points. The Eldar Avatar is another.
It's the subject of not enough play testing with their units.
 
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