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So the last few months, I've really been focusing largely on hobby activities more so than gaming. I've got a massive collection with a good deal of unpainted/unassembled models. I'm tired of looking at it so in September I gave myself until April 6 of 2016 (my birthday) to get everything I have and the few new things I'll buy completely DONE.

Because of this, it's been about a month or two since I was at my LGS on a 40k night. I sopped in last Friday to see what everyone was up to and was really socked at what I saw. Prior to Friday, I would have described my local meta as "semi-competitive". Not a lot of GT winners in my area, but not a ton of slouches either. It's also NOT the kind of place where 3/5 people are running crazy net lists. On any given night you could show up and expect that, regardless of your experience level and army list, you could find a game and have some fun. It was basically as challenging as you wanted it to be. Until Friday ....

Almost every table was Triptide/Stormsurge/Tau'nar etc, and/or serpent spam/jet seer council/scat bikes. We allow Forge World (typically it's up to individuals - if you don't like Forge World then don't play with someone who brought it, but there's also no "house rule" against it), so it's not surprising to see it, but I just couldn't believe how many players had the Supremacy armour. I counted 6 suits of it. On top of that, nearly every list I saw (even the non-Tau) was just a crazy strong "table you as fast as possible" hyper competitive list.

This store use to run 'ard boyz tourneys so I asked the owner if this was a new event based on that, or if these guys (most of whom were regulars that I'm use to seeing) were getting ready for an event or something and he said, "No. Things just all of a sudden went nuts in the last two weeks and everyone has been bringing atomic bombs to the table trying to really clobber one another. I don't know why it changed or what caused it."

The environment was still friendly and all, but wow. I don't really have a ton of stuff that's going to stand up to that kind of environment (my main armies are CSM, Orks, and a really fluffy FW/Stealth based Tau army as well as a large Imperial army based mostly around tactical marines) and I'm just completely blown away by that sudden shift. I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this where the meta of your LGS changes on a dime for no apparent reason?

I don't really know much about the new tau stuff other then they have realllllly big guns then everyone complains how that army is cheese until the new army comes out with something even more powerful. Then the trend starts over lol. So I stay away from tournies and "try hards," because that is exactly what you get, a bunch of people that buy the biggest thing just to blow stuff up. Nothing really strategic about sitting back, while an enemy force is running at you and you can just shoot away... hahaha maybe I am wrong but this is what I am hearing through the grapevines.

I more or less took a break from playing 40K with started doing AoS. Rules are easier and you don't need to worry about army lists as much. Just throw some stuff together and go. Some might say "AoS sucks cause theres no point system and some sides are not fair...." well... 40k doesnt have a point system and from what it sounds like, its not that fair either haha,

Sorry for the ramble, but yes it seems like what you are describing, is what 40k has become! If thats how you have fun then go for it, but thats not really for me.

That sounds nuts and I am sorry for you!

I would maybe ask one of the guys who was actually playing about the power explosion and go from there!

You have 4 options.

1. Don't play against cheeze - play vs regular stuff.
2. Get your own cheeze and out-cheeze them.
3. Play against them with what you've got and suffer. Probably eventually come up with a solution against cheeze. Something like crazy ld-psy power combinations or allies?
4. ???

You have 4 options.

1. Don't play against cheeze - play vs regular stuff.
2. Get your own cheeze and out-cheeze them.
3. Play against them with what you've got and suffer. Probably eventually come up with a solution against cheeze. Something like crazy ld-psy power combinations or allies?

What's the fourth option?

You make good points though. I'm just still kind of reeling at how quickly/randomly it turned. Prior to this, you could have seen two really tough super powerful lists on one table, and right next to that, two people playing a game with armies that would be laughed off of the internet were the lists to be posted on Dakka. It was a very lively, and varied meta. Now? Go hard or go home. Everyone is still friendly (outside of lists, no one is behaving like a WAAC), but wow.

I did ask some of the guys and they all kind of shrugged. They all seemed to think it just sort of randomly happened that everyone showed up one day with tough lists and just never shifted back. I blame some sort of Indian in the Cupboard type situation where someone's Fateweaver model has actually come to life and has decided to be a big blue "youknowwhat" by screwing with my gaming group. lol

I think my plan for now is to hunker down and complete my modeling/painting while I look at designing some much tougher lists. That way, in the event that this hasn't blown over in a month or two I'll be ready.

Has anyone else ever seen this happen though? I just can't get over how quick it changed.

Yes, ultra-competitive can be fun.
They all got on the same page of "do your worst!!!".
It is a funny dose of Sadism / Masochism but I had done this many times with my friends, it is awesome the FLGS has gone that way at least one night a week.

Cheese? It is not cheese when everyone understands it is expected.
Heck, you can set a theme of the most broken allies combination or most ungodly LOW army combinations... really it can be fun.

To have "permission" to do "evil" every once and a while can be exciting.

We can try to give suggestions on the 3-d option.

In my circle of friends we invited a fellow to play with our group whom we have now dubbed 'the funpire' because he sucks the fun out of everything he touches...

Originally we were very lax about things, making semi competitive funlists. Then enters the funpire.

"That isnt competitive." He declared, "The math says thats a waste of points." He huffed, "Everything but my stuff is broken!" he sourly declared even as he was winning.

Slowly but surely. Like the cancerous wyrm Nidhog he worked his way into the root of the group. He helped build lists, offered tactical advice, pointed out netlists even though he claimed to hate them.

Before we realized it, we were doing mathhammer more than saying "This seems cool, lets see how it does!" Lists became streamlined brutal affairs. There was a push to trash your opponent rather than just enjoy the game.

Our world tree almost died. Thankfully we uprooted and dont interact much with our nidhog because frankly he's a giant tool, but there you go thats my expierence.

Cheese? It is not cheese when everyone understands it is expected.
Heck, you can set a theme of the most broken allies combination or most ungodly LOW army combinations... really it can be fun.

To have "permission" to do "evil" every once and a while can be exciting.

That's the biggest shift I think. It use to be that no one cared if you brought, say, a Stompa to a game as long as everyone had at least a few days notice. Really, you could bring just about anything provided you gave a heads up that you were bringing something a little off-the wall. Now, it's apparently just expected.

I shall need to retool my thinking I suppose. I've always aimed at making lists that match the fluff of my army while remaining at least competitive to semi-competitive. This new meta is going to be ... interesting for that.

We can try to give suggestions on the 3-d option.

Thanks koooaei. Once I get a better handle on things I will likely take you up on that. Part of my issue right now is that the lists not only have the kinds of things you would expect in a "hardcore face smashing list", but they are built in slightly weird and unexpected ways so I'm a little thrown at the moment. lol

In my circle of friends we invited a fellow to play with our group whom we have now dubbed 'the funpire' because he sucks the fun out of everything he touches...

Fortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening here. For now at least, everyone is still being their cool, calm, collected and usual selves. They're just doing it with REALLY tough armies. To illustrate - I saw a new guy show up with about 2000pts. of Orks that were mostly walkers and boyz. He was apparently new to the hobby with little experience. One of the regulars (who had a Riptide Wing plus Stormsurges and the Ta'unar) agreed to play him, but took it as easy as possible and sort of walked him through things. He managed to make the game last a full 4 turns. He could have shot the Orks off the table in 2. lol

So yeah, not quite doom and gloom here, but definitely a pretty severe change.

EDIT: Actually, it was probably a lot more than 2000pts. of Orks now that I think about it, but still ...

This is a perfect example that being competitive doesn't mean its no longer fun or a relaxed environment. Competitive is a list attribute, casual is an attitude. They are totally compatible.

I recommend jumping in and having fun with it.

Tycho wrote:
So the last few months, I've really been focusing largely on hobby activities more so than gaming. I've got a massive collection with a good deal of unpainted/unassembled models. I'm tired of looking at it so in September I gave myself until April 6 of 2016 (my birthday) to get everything I have and the few new things I'll buy completely DONE.

Because of this, it's been about a month or two since I was at my LGS on a 40k night. I sopped in last Friday to see what everyone was up to and was really socked at what I saw. Prior to Friday, I would have described my local meta as "semi-competitive". Not a lot of GT winners in my area, but not a ton of slouches either. It's also NOT the kind of place where 3/5 people are running crazy net lists. On any given night you could show up and expect that, regardless of your experience level and army list, you could find a game and have some fun. It was basically as challenging as you wanted it to be. Until Friday ....

Almost every table was Triptide/Stormsurge/Tau'nar etc, and/or serpent spam/jet seer council/scat bikes. We allow Forge World (typically it's up to individuals - if you don't like Forge World then don't play with someone who brought it, but there's also no "house rule" against it), so it's not surprising to see it, but I just couldn't believe how many players had the Supremacy armour. I counted 6 suits of it. On top of that, nearly every list I saw (even the non-Tau) was just a crazy strong "table you as fast as possible" hyper competitive list.

This store use to run 'ard boyz tourneys so I asked the owner if this was a new event based on that, or if these guys (most of whom were regulars that I'm use to seeing) were getting ready for an event or something and he said, "No. Things just all of a sudden went nuts in the last two weeks and everyone has been bringing atomic bombs to the table trying to really clobber one another. I don't know why it changed or what caused it."

The environment was still friendly and all, but wow. I don't really have a ton of stuff that's going to stand up to that kind of environment (my main armies are CSM, Orks, and a really fluffy FW/Stealth based Tau army as well as a large Imperial army based mostly around tactical marines) and I'm just completely blown away by that sudden shift. I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this where the meta of your LGS changes on a dime for no apparent reason?

Luckily, I have been an organizing force in my gaming pools, and so the shift would be fairly unlikely to happen here so suddenly but there has definitely been a slow change. ITC is responsible as much as anything. The ITC events are what people prep for around my area and they do allow a lot of this stuff. If there's a sudden uptick in winning ITC points, that'll trigger this kind of thing.

Mont'Ka and Kauyon changed the landscape significantly which might drive some of this.

Fortunately, Forgeworld is crazy expensive and you don't actually need it to win (two strikes against it). The other fortunate thing is that we have wizbang Generals here who are really good. It definitely lessens the motivation for going bananas on the budget.. Strike three.

There are winds of change that are blowing for sure. No doubt. But nothing like the blizzard you describe. It could well be a sudden uptick in ITC interest? Just my guess.

These things happen. Gaming communities tend to be small, so it only takes a few people to change the meta.

Ultra-competitive environments can be fun in their own way. Take the time to learn what makes the players tick and see if it's something you can stomach. Otherwise, walk away. There are other things to do besides 40k.

 Jancoran wrote:


Luckily, I have been an organizing force in my gaming pools, and so the shift would be fairly unlikely to happen here so suddenly but there has definitely been a slow change. ITC is responsible as much as anything. The ITC events are what people prep for around my area and they do allow a lot of this stuff. If there's a sudden uptick in winning ITC points, that'll trigger this kind of thing.

Mont'Ka and Kauyon changed the landscape significantly which might drive some of this.

Fortunately, Forgeworld is crazy expensive and you don't actually need it to win (two strikes against it). The other fortunate thing is that we have wizbang Generals here who are really good. It definitely lessens the motivation for going bananas on the budget.. Strike three.

There are winds of change that are blowing for sure. No doubt. But nothing like the blizzard you describe. It could well be a sudden uptick in ITC interest? Just my guess.

Oh Jancoran and your hatred of the ITC. If everyone plays the same Tau, it's actually harder to accumulate points since you're competing within the same army now. Additionally, the Taunar suit is actually forbidden in ITC events, but lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.

The more innocuous explanation could be that a lot of people thought those new suits looked cool and got some. Additionally, if you already had 3 riptides, taking them in a riptide wing only makes sense. I think the crowd that enjoys big robots has a pretty big overlay with the crowd that plays 40k.

As for what you should do...I would just keep painting the stuff you have. I find that I spend way more time building/painting than playing anyway, that seems to be your case as well. Chasing the latest hotness is a good way to burn out in my experience. Whenever models you like overlap with models that have good rules, fun tends to go up as you become more competitive. But I'm not sure if chasing the dragon is the way to go. The new CSM codex is supposed to be released this year, so maybe we'll get some cool models with cool rules too.

Yo OP. Consider a little more organization?

SN Battle Reports is awesome -- focus on narrative, terrain, and mission parameters. Lots of unit diversity. One of their things is a Badab War "historical" recreation. Check it out.

If that's more your style, organize your group to play a narrative night alongside the "anything goes" comp style. You might be surprised who goes for it.

Just dont go 5 Imperial Knights, they are weak...

Wow! Thanks for the responses everybody. Much appreciated. For the record, I definitely seized on the Ta'unar armies because I've not seen that much Forge World in that many separate games at the same time before, but pretty much everyone seems to have escalated. Elder who weren't using much in the way of "typical Eldar cheese" have given in to insanity, there are 2++ running everywhere w/Fateweaver, tons of Cent stars (I realize in the grand scheme of "power armies" the cent star has fallen a little bu still...). I think it was just the mass/simultaneous escalation that threw me.

To address the recent responses:

@Jancoran, nope. It's not the ITC. We have a few players who follow the ITC and go to ITC events, but they are a significant minority. Plus, honestly, outside of the Taunar, Forge World really isn't the issue. Plenty of people are running books that are capable of sheer brutality right out of the box with no FW help (that's part of the reason why we stopped worrying about FW as a group).

As for what you should do...I would just keep painting the stuff you have. I find that I spend way more time building/painting than playing anyway, that seems to be your case as well. Chasing the latest hotness is a good way to burn out in my experience. Whenever models you like overlap with models that have good rules, fun tends to go up as you become more competitive. But I'm not sure if chasing the dragon is the way to go. The new CSM codex is supposed to be released this year, so maybe we'll get some cool models with cool rules too.

Well, with my wallet, "chasing the dragon" was never really on the table anyway. I think my hesitation stems from the fact that I've always stuck to more "traditional" units that haven't been truly competitive in ages. Dreadnoughts for Space Marines, Fire Warriors for Tau, etc., while I tend to not be as attracted to the so called "power units" (I only own one Heldrake for my CSM and only one Riptide for my Tau). I enjoy working to make those "weak" units as competitive as possible. That's a lot easier to do when hardcore net lists are a rarity. Looks like I'll just have to work a little harder now. Here's hoping the new CSM book is actually usable this time 'round!

Ultra-competitive environments can be fun in their own way. Take the time to learn what makes the players tick and see if it's something you can stomach.

As long as everyone stays as they are in terms of personality I think I can have fun in this new meta. I'm just struggling to figure out lists that will be a little more competitive than what I'm use to assembling with the models I have. lol You know it really says something about you when you have like 20 years worth of collection and only have maybe one or two of the "best" units at most across 6 different armies.

Yo OP. Consider a little more organization?

SN Battle Reports is awesome -- focus on narrative, terrain, and mission parameters. Lots of unit diversity. One of their things is a Badab War "historical" recreation. Check it out.

If that's more your style, organize your group to play a narrative night alongside the "anything goes" comp style. You might be surprised who goes for it.

Hey! Thanks for the recommendation. I will check that out. One of the things I was concerned with was new players. Imagine new people walking in to check out the game and seeing nothing but super expensive units in hyper competitive armies on the tables. I think your suggestion is the way to go. Maybe we can set up a narrative group and a more competition based group. We use to have about 40% competitive players, 50% "narrative" driven players and (unfortunately), 10% well .... 10% THAT GUY. lol So the groups could intermingle and you knew you could always find a decent game because there was a pretty fair mix. If the numbers have skewed to like 60-80% competitive, maybe it's time to carve out a few tables for the "Forge the Narrative" folks. That's a pretty good point. Thanks!

Just dont go 5 Imperial Knights, they are weak...

LOL There was a shocking amount of Adamantium Lance to be had ...

Tycho wrote:
LOL There was a shocking amount of Adamantium Lance to be had ...

Yeah thats only 3 knights. 5 knights is too many and is your entire army. It basically doesn't function competitively

bogalubov wrote:


Oh Jancoran and your hatred of the ITC. If everyone plays the same Tau, it's actually harder to accumulate points since you're competing within the same army now. Additionally, the Taunar suit is actually forbidden in ITC events, but lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.

The more innocuous explanation could be that a lot of people thought those new suits looked cool and got some. Additionally, if you already had 3 riptides, taking them in a riptide wing only makes sense. I think the crowd that enjoys big robots has a pretty big overlay with the crowd that plays 40k.

As for what you should do...I would just keep painting the stuff you have. I find that I spend way more time building/painting than playing anyway, that seems to be your case as well. Chasing the latest hotness is a good way to burn out in my experience. Whenever models you like overlap with models that have good rules, fun tends to go up as you become more competitive. But I'm not sure if chasing the dragon is the way to go. The new CSM codex is supposed to be released this year, so maybe we'll get some cool models with cool rules too.

I'm well documented as not hating the ITC. I think you're taking what I said and interpreting it. Do I think they have overstepped? That they need to embrace a super majority as a requisite for "ruling"? yes. That does not equate to hatred.

Also: I wasnt just talking about the Tau'nar.

Local metas can shift in sudden strange ways. They usually edge back towards the "normal" after a few weeks but sometimes the changes can last for a while.

An anecdotal example from my club was when everyone went flyer crazy. Before we did not use many flyers and hardly anyone brought any skyfire. One day one of our regulars bought two flyers and started using them. They were extremely effective against our lists which were not made to be able to fight them. Soon everyone was buying and bringing flyers. Then everyone started bringing lists filled with all the skyfire and anti-air that their codices offered turning flyers ineffective. People stopped bringing flyers and our meta returned to normal except people still bring skyfire in their lists.

I suggest giving it a few weeks for people to start shifting back to the way they used to play if you don't want to abandon your fluffy army. Asking around for semi-competitive games can also help influence regulars by letting them know that they can still get games with a semi-competitive list.

We have the one guy who really is in it to paint and model, but the knight titan is a REALLY cool model and so is his scratch build warhound. So the rest of us just made our lists better to deal with it.

One of the perks of Tzeentch daemons is that I only have to choose my powers and artifacts after the game starts, I have the tools to have a screamer star, but I don't use it unless I need it to deal with my opponent's list. Not sure if you can do something similar with your list?