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I am toying with the idea of a complete Skyrunner army, which I know has already been discussed here at length. Here is what I am thinking... I have a couple of restrictions: must be battleforged, only allowed 3 detachments. This has been made with Battlescribe, so please forgive me as I get to grip with it

Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment)
HQ
Autarch - Banshee mask, Laser lance, Shuriken pistol, Skyrunner

Troops
6x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult, Skyrunner Warlock, Singing spear
6x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult, Skyrunner Warlock, Singing spear
6x Windrider all with Scatter Lasers
6x Windrider all with Scatter Lasers

Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment)
Skyrunner Seer Council
Skyrunner Farseer - Shuriken Pistol, Singing spear, Skyrunner, The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (Remnant of Glory)
Skyrunner Farseer - Shard of Anaris (Remnant of Glory), Shuriken Pistol, Skyrunner
5xSkyrunner Warlock, 5xSinging spear

Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment)
Aspect Host (+1 Ballistic Skill)
6x Shining Spear, Incl. Shining Spear Exarch, Star Lance
6x Shining Spear, Incl. Shining Spear Exarch, Star Lance
6x Shining Spear, Incl. Shining Spear Exarch, Star Lance

Total 1,813

Not sure who will be the warlord yet.

1 Farseer will take Prescience/Guide and roll on the Runes of Fate Table. While the other will roll all their dice on the Runes of Fate. The unit of S9 shooting with Armoubane CC and (possibly) S4 with Doom (I say hopefully...) will be able to take out the Imperial Knights that I see in shooting followed up by combat. The Shining Spear Host should run independent of Farseer protection, at BS5 will hit most things and will back it up by charging wherever they can (possibly adding Jinx from a Warlock to make their AP3 really hurt TEQ, that would be where the extra Warlocks on the Guardians would come in.

Have 37 points still to spend, any thoughts on where I could use them, or on what I have drawn up so far?

Thanks for your thoughts Dakka

Scatter Lasers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any kind of shuriken weaponry. If you don't believe me, take a pen&paper and do the math.

Shining Spears are very weak, deploying them en masse is billion times worse. Take more regular bikes.

Either max Council Warlock count to make them ML3 or drop it straight.

You will also suffer from he lack of anti-AV. Singing spears may sound on paper but reality is a harsh mistress.

DIXI

Thank DIXI

Will revisit the idea


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Sticking with the bike idea. Would Vypers with Lances fit in? I know they are massively fragile but that is really the only way I can see adding any anti AV type weaponry while staying in the bike theme

Vipers are like the worst weapon platform in the game. Very fragile.

Check out Harlequin book. They have a neat jetbike formation, Faoulchu's Wing, I guess. Has some good stuff there and antitank aswell as HtH power.

Dark Eldar book has swift antitank in form of BlasterBorns too.

And BTW, DIXI is not my name.
It's Latin, literally meaning "I said" with the meaning "I said it and I'm sure what I'm talking about".

cabal why would you want to maximize a warlock council instead of running them individually within squads of bikes?

I'm asking for a friend he just got into building jetbike'dar and is under the impression that warlocks can only target their own unit with most of their available psychic powers.

I don't have the codex but I'd love to pass along any advice to him.

Having them only at ML 2 is a waste of points for the rest of theirs squad. You got to go big or go home with them.
Maybe Seer council is not the best choice right now, but that's how it works.

Regarding Splitting warlocks - you need more than one psypower to buff bike squad to a decent level. It doesn't really work with one-ofs in each squad, when with council you may just get whatever you want - like all the so Conceals, Dooms, Divination stuffs all over that couple of squads you have.

The Warlock would always get Conceal, plus another power. So the individual Warlock is capable of boosting the Jink save of a Jetbike squad to 2+

That is not insignificant...

Just take a pen and paper and make some math.

How much Warp Charges you actually have?

Is it enough to reliably cover all your 1-ofs with Conceal/Reveal?

And now do you have enough charges for the rest? For all those Invises, Shrieks, Divination buffs etc.

My point it that although having all your squads supported defensively is good, having a very big psychic power core (assuming you are really into Seer Council, as in OP's roster) is stronger both crunch-wise and from tactical perspective.

You pay a bunch of points for them but not really using their potential at maximum - all those ML3 Warlocks and 2 additional farseers are a truckload of psychic cheese - Doom, Invisibulity, ignores cover - you name it. Only together they are a huge threat. Having that one huge heavymagics unbeatable squad is a playstyle of its own, and this playstyle actually wins games.

That's IMO how you play your Seer Council. It's a decent choice, not mandatory, probably not the strongest, pretty darn costly - but it's a way to play Eldar nonetheless.

Edit : P.S. Jinking sucks. Especially with all your squads.

 cabal_therapy wrote:
all those ML3 Warlocks

A unit of 7+ Warlocks counts as Lvl 3, so the entire unit has the option to take 3 powers (4 if I roll all on the same table). While each Warlock only provides 1 ML each, regardless of the Lvl of the unit

If anything I would say take a unit of 7, to get access to the extra power. All having 10 would accomplish is extra wound protection on the Farseers and 3 more Charge a turn (not 9 as you seem to be getting at)

 cabal_therapy wrote:
Scatter Lasers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any kind of shuriken weaponry. If you don't believe me, take a pen&paper and do the math.

I must be missing something, when running the math, this is what I see. Thanks for your input!

Scatter Laser
Hits against MEQ look like the following
(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed armor save) * 4 shots = 20/27
This means each round of the scatter laser will kill about .74 marines.

Hits against GEQ look like the following.
(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed armor save) * 4 shots = 40/27
This means each round of the scatter laser will kill about 1.48 guard.

Shuriken Cannon
Hits against MEQ look like the following. You have to run two sets of numbers because of the AP2 shots.
(2/3 to hit) * (4/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed armor save) * 3 shots = 12/27
+ (2/3 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * 3 shots = 9/27
This means each round of the shruiken cannon will kill .78 MEQ.

Hits against GEQ look like the following. The cannon shreds their armor.
(2/3 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * 3 shots = 10/6
This means each round of the shruiken cannon will kill 1.66 GEQ.

Summary
The Shuriken Cannon is better at killing all kinds of infantry. The better AP means that it is better at killing guard, the AP2 hits means that it will kill high armor targets more often. Against 2+ save targets this gap increases further.

The scatter laser's big advantage is range. The difference between a 24" gun and 36" gun is a lot more than just 12". It increases your overall threat range by 12". Since your threat range can often be viewed as a circle (depending on the board edge location). Given the area of a circle is A=π * radius (squared), you are talking about the difference between 1809 square inches and 4049 square inches! To see this in action, take a tape measure from your figure and see how much you can hit with a 36" range vs a 24" range. You get over twice the hitting options with the scatter laser.

For long range platforms that are fragile, I would stick a scatter laser on them. For short range tools I would put the cannon on them. Given that the other bikes all have shuriken cats -- which can be effective in masse', I would be tossing cannons on them -- unless you have the SL on every bike....but I'm digressing

Against vehicles the SL is also slightly better. It is important to note. Here is a handy chart I found showing all the percentages!

Scatter laser are better than shuriken cannons. For one thing their range alone puts them higher up. A scatter laser can kill infinitely more models at 25-36" than a shuriken cannon can and also will take infinitely less damage from guns that they did not have to fly into range of to take their shot. You have to look at the defensive factors as well as the offensive ones.

Another thing is that your calculations are not good representations of reality. Because of the lower number of shots, the distribution is more widespread and so the likelihood that the rolls you throw with the shuriken cannon will give you results close to the averages you have posted is lower than that of the scatter laser and therefore is less reliable. The scatter laser also has a higher damage potential (i.e. can kill up to 4 guardsmen rather than 3). which you cannot ignore because of an average.

Yet another victory that the shuriken cannon claims over the scatter is the ability to kill TEQ models. This is a short sighted claim because even though the shuriken cannon is "better" at it, it is still not good at it and this job should be left to shuriken catapults, starcannon and d-scythes.

Glad to see somebody did his homework right. I ran math ages ago and for some reason was absolutely sure Scatter Laster is more effective even from crunch perspective.

You mentioned the difference between 24" and 36" range. This is more than twice more options - literally an invaluable advantage on the battlefield. Being able to out range pretty much every common weapon in the game is what makes Scatterbikes truly op. Give output while staying safe - Jtbikes aren't really that tough to withstand shooting. Even a Bolter can shot them dead. Not to be in range is probably the best defense you could imagine, surpassing any armor, cover and invuls present.
Even though Scatter Lasers efficiency is slightly[/] worse, you can hit pretty much everywhere on the battlefield thanks to their move distance.

Having an ability to deal with AV, infantry and fliers - most important feat due to 4 shots - also puts them over the top. Versatility is truly The God of War, and that exactly what Scatter Bikes can offer you. Not to mention they are Troops choice.
Also you have better chances after Jinking, which is nice.

Scatter Laser Windriders is probably half of the reason why Eldar are top-tier competitive army.
Its not rather the pure numbers, but Eldar overall tactics and Jetbikes tactical role synegrizing together what makes them so good.
So good I've never seen a snigle Shuriken Cannon Windrider on the table.

[i]P.S. ETC 2015 feather whooping 944 Scatter Bikes overall. Not Shuriken Bikes.
I mean, c'mon! THIS many tournament guys can't be wrong

Got to lighten this post up, because I have a natural affinity for big words and being salty.

 cabal_therapy wrote:
Even though Scatter Lasers efficiency is slightly worse, you can hit pretty much everywhere on the battlefield thanks to their move distance.

Yep, as I mentioned it's all about area of effect.

The area of effect has another counter-side to it. That is the ability for enemy units to strike back at your units. So if your weapons plus move is 48", and the enemies is 24", you can skirt around the board for a long time before there is any real worry of damage to your units.


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 Rx8Speed wrote:
The scatter laser also has a higher damage potential (i.e. can kill up to 4 guardsmen rather than 3). which you cannot ignore because of an average.

Respectfully, you can, and should ignore extremes when estimating effects.

The chances for one scatter laser shot to kill a marine is 5/27, or 18.5% (2/3*5/6*1/3).
Pulling off four such shots lowers the odds to 625/531441, or 0.001%. (5/27*5/27*5/27*5/27).
I'm not saying it won't happen in your lifetime. I am saying that odds like that are the reason the lottery is in business.

When playing, lets try not to think about what can this unit do. Instead think about, what is this unit likely to do. Does that make sense?