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I've been betting a lot of harlequins stuff recently, and have been wondering about the plus's and minus's of these two when compared to each other
I know that the Revenge is a lot more restrictive, but its mostly the same stuff with a really nice rerolling 1's, which makes everything much more durable, especially if given some form of 3+ invul

What are your thoughts on this DakkaDakka?

When you boil it down Cegorach's Revenge is a specific Masque Detachment configuration. In return for being forced to fill all seven Elite slots and putting two Skyweaver units in as the two Fast Attack options you get the invul reroll. So the true question is whether the mandatory point expenditure you have to make is worth the bonus.

First, let's consider what Elites people will field at minimum in a Masque Detachment. Harlequins are most successful with 2-3 Shadowseers, so let's say that third Shadowseer is tax. Death Jesters aren't mandatory but most will field 1-2, with 2 being the more popular count, so we'll say the third Jester is tax. Not everyone is sold on a Solitaire, so we'll count that as tax, too (though I LOVE fielding a Solitaire, we're going with what most on the net will field in a Masque Detachment). As far as Elites go, we have a Solitaire, a Death Jester and a Shadowseer as tax to field Cegorach's Revenge. That's a minimum of 265pts.

For the Fast Attack slot you can get in a cheap fulfillment with two Starweavers with a Masque Detachment and build out your army elsewhere, but this isn't popular given how strong Skyweavers are from the standpoints of mobility and firepower. I personally field one Skyweaver squadron of 4+ models and an undedicated Starweaver to satisfy my Masque Detachment Fast Attack FOC requirement. Others like to overload their Masque Detachment with Skyweavers in both Fast Attack slots and usually field 3+ models in each. From one perspective Cegorach's Revenge forces you to break up your 4-strong Skyweaver unit into two 2-strong units. From the other perspective there's no adjustment as you were going to field two Skyweaver units anyway.

With Cegorach's Revenge you can field two minimum squads of Skyweavers and a full unit of Voidweavers. Alternatively you can field a minimum unit of Voidweavers and more robust units of Skyweavers. It's an either/or situation. The first leaves your Skyweaver units vulnerable to quick elimination while the latter leaves your Voidweaver vulnerable. Either way you have a vulnerable unit. If you try to mitigate vulnerability in both units you wind up taking bodies away from the Troupes, thus leaving them vulnerable. Any way you slice it you're weakening something to accommodate that invul reroll.

In contrast, the Masque Detachment gives you the flexibility to field one strong Skyweaver squad, a fully loaded Voidweaver squad, fewer Elites and larger foot Troupes. If one of those Troupes embarks a Starweaver you can use a Fast Attack slot to purchase that Starweaver. You also have many more points to spend upgrading your Players, Troupe Masters and what Elites you do field for greater punching power.

What will the invul reroll get you? In practice, not much. I've used Cegorach's Revenge four times. My first game I successfully rerolled a 1 into a 5++ save exactly zero times. The second game, twice. The third and fourth games were 4-6 rerolled saves in total. For rerolls against a 3++ save I managed to get roughly 2 rerolled saves per game, and that's from the only two models that can get it (whatever gets Starmist Raiment and the Solitaire). So that's roughly 5-6 wounds saved I would have otherwise lost. With the Masque Detachment you're fielding well over 6 wounds worth of bodies otherwise saved by the rerolled invuls.

If you have a large game Cegorach's Revenge is well worth it as the extra bodies plus upgrades make the rerolled invuls a true bonus as opposed to a tax at the expense of numbers. 1750pts is not enough to get to that bonus point. You would need 2000pts or more to make Cegorach's worthwhile without jeopardizing efficacy.

Thanks for the reply, its very in depth and detailed, but i have a couple questions.
Would you really consider a shadowseer as a tax? she is just amazing, being a fairly cheap psyker with access to the awesomeness that is phantasmansy, as well as the grenade launcher and a great melee weapon with some great stats, barring the low T.

Do you take units of voidweavers larger than just 1 of them? In my extremely limited experience they seem better as solo models who either soak up a decent amount of firepower before dying quickly, or get ignored for a while and get some really good shots off with the prismatic cannon. Does making a larger unit of them change their effectiveness at all?

Do you think that the rerolling 1's in the Revenge would make the Solitaire no longer a tax unit for it, as it decently buffs its stats, as well as the larger number of units that will be on the field because of the formation making the enemy less likely to focus him down?


Thanks for the input, it will be a lot of help with my list making

Well, i've fielded Cegorarch's revenge as orklequins. I can say that it's a nice combination. That's basically what i'd take anywayz other than a voidweaver. Re-rolls of invuls are handy. They're not too op but don't forget that you've got plenty of 4++ for all your vehicles and jetbikes once per game and your whole army has a 5++ at very least.

I didn't find the 3-d shadowseer to be a liablility at all. 3-d Death jester was not too bad either. Was also not too impressed by bikes - used them as haywire platforms cause without nades, they'll strike last every time they charge inside terrain. I know a glaive build is generally considered nice but i don't find harlequins lack melee ap2 that much.

All in all, my personal take is that Cegorarch's revenge is perfectly functional as mono-harlequins and is not worse than Masque. Masque is a bit more flexible. Basically, Masque allows you to avoid using:
- 3-d shadowseer - which i think is not an advantage. Shadowseers are great and basically what makes the army function. Psy powers and pinning nades ftw.
- 3-d jester - which is not necesserely good as they're a neat tool.
- Jetbikes - which is good in my opinion - one squad is generally enough.
- Solitaire - which is fine - he's not too outstanding despite his stats

But what could you take instead of this units? A 4-th trope? Tropes depend on shadowseers a lot. I find it hard to support even 3 of them. Against psycher heavy armies, consider yourself lucky getting 2 powers off.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Would you really consider a shadowseer as a tax? she is just amazing, being a fairly cheap psyker with access to the awesomeness that is phantasmansy, as well as the grenade launcher and a great melee weapon with some great stats, barring the low T.

It's perfectly acceptable to field three Shadowseers in a Masque Detachment; many do so. The tax part comes in how players usually outfit their mandatory three Troupes. A common configuration is to have two large foot Troupes and one on a Starweaver. The most useful powers are Veil of Tears, Dance of Shadows and Fog of Dreams, all Blessings or Maledictions that preserve your forces but are unable to be cast whilst embarked on a transport. You could put the third Shadowseer on board the Starweaver but a bad spread of rolls renders him useless. Alternatively you could double up the Shadowseer count in one of the larger Troupes or have him walk alone. The former marks that particular Troupe a prime target. The latter nullifies the effectiveness of Veil of Tears as it only affects the Psyker and his unit. Of course, you could have him roll on a different Discipline and garner benefit there, but I would rather spend those points on an extra Skyweaver with Zephyrglaives. Two ML2 Shadowseers is still quite effective.

Do you take units of voidweavers larger than just 1 of them? In my extremely limited experience they seem better as solo models who either soak up a decent amount of firepower before dying quickly, or get ignored for a while and get some really good shots off with the prismatic cannon. Does making a larger unit of them change their effectiveness at all?

I almost always max out my Voidweaver squadron. During the first two turns they draw an inordinate amount of fire and help screen my advancing foot Troupes from both fire and early enemy charges. I find I deploy my Mirage Launchers on Turn 1 almost every game, a maneuver that preserves the unit through the first turn and denies a quick KP and/or First Blood VP for the opponent while at the same time rendering the opponent's first Shooting phase largely ineffective. If there are any Voidweavers left by the end of Turn 2 I'm quite lucky, but my forces have already reached their goal of close combat. Having three of them also affords me the ability to have a heavy Haywire Cannon unit without having to spend points to give that weapon to my Skyweavers, allowing them to instead focus on volume S6 firepower.

Do you think that the rerolling 1's in the Revenge would make the Solitaire no longer a tax unit for it, as it decently buffs its stats, as well as the larger number of units that will be on the field because of the formation making the enemy less likely to focus him down?

Not really. It is nice to reroll 1s on a unit with 3++ saves, but to build your entire army around this bonus for two models--the Solitaire and your Warlord with the Starmist Raiment--isn't worth the extra wounds you could buy with the points saved from fielding seven Elites, especially when you're throwing invul saves for your Warlord against S6+ weaponry that can ID it on a bad invul roll of a 2 with no reroll at all. Again, if your opponent is that freaked by the Solitaire that he's dedicating that much effort to deal with it you're in a good place.

As for having a larger number of units on the board as a result of Cegorach's Revenge's fielding requirements, that's a bit of a misnomer. Yes, you technically have more units on the board, but six of your seven Elite models will join other units. Should you roll a KP based scenario you now have 2-3 extra KPs your opponent can pick up in Elites alone. Harlequins have a tough time with KP missions, so Cegorach's only exacerbates it. If you're hoping to build a solid all-comers mono-Harlequin list you're better off doing so with the Masque Detachment; have one large Skyweaver unit, a Starweaver as your other Fast Attack and the mandatory three Troupes, Voidweaver unit 2-3 Shadowseers, 1-2 Death Jesters and Solitaire. Still heavy on the KPs but minus one Skyweaver unit, 1-2 Elites and perhaps 1-2 extra Starweavers as dedicated transports.

Thanks for the input, it will be a lot of help with my list making

No problem. My pleasure!

koooaei wrote:But what could you take instead of this units? A 4-th trope? Tropes depend on shadowseers a lot. I find it hard to support even 3 of them. Against psycher heavy armies, consider yourself lucky getting 2 powers off.

You can only get a fourth Troupe if you field a Cast of Players formation, which isn't very worthwhile as that Troupe can't Run & Charge, plus you're still spending points to field a Shadowseer and Death Jester. Instead those points you're not spending on Elites can go towards bolstering body counts and weapons upgrades in your existing Troupes.

Though this does bring up another common advantage I've seen people use instead of fielding Cegorach's. The third Shadowseer, third Death Jester and Solitaire are commonly moved out of Cegorach's and used as The Heroes' Path formation. Having three individual models with Stealth and Shrouded that can infiltrate forward and apply pressure that forces your opponent to deal with them sooner than they care to is another successful strategy. You do lose the ability to bolster your other units as much as you could if you saved 140 or so points by leaving the third DJ and SS out of the list, but the tactical benefits of combining a Masque Detachment with The Heroes Path does have merit. Getting a 2+ cover save on your Solitaire, DJ and SS while in difficult terrain isn't bad at all (except when you can't claim it, but that's a separate target altogether).

Good points. I still think that it's just a matter of preference. All of this options are good enough. That's why i like harlequins. Basically, every option has a way of being used to great effect in certain conditions.

What you should really compare is Revenge vs Masque+Heroes Path.

What you get from Revenge:

-The rerolls. Very negligible on 5++ (39% vs 33% to save) but noticeable on 4++ (all your mirage launchers) and solid on 3++, effectively giving you close to a 2+ On your Solitaire and the bearer of the Starmist raiment, usually a Troupe Master.

What you get from Masque with Heroes:

-Stealth and Shroud gives you a 2+ on Solitaire, a Death Jester and Shadowseer.

-Infiltrate on those three are huge. Each one is super easy to get out of LOS, and the ability to always deploy near their chosen targets is absolutely fantastic. In a codex without any other form of alternate deployment the extra board control is huge

-Aren't forced to take 3 jesters. This is big: the jester is a very niche model, and though I've had them do awesome stuff, I've never wanted 3. Ever. Just having one who's protected, doesn't have to drag around a troupe, and who is always near what he wants to attack is way better in my eyes.

I've played probably 25-30 games with harlequins so far, and I started from Cegorach's revenge. I saw a lot more success after I swapped it for the masque and I've been experimenting with various DE/CWE allied detachments to support it. I can see how the safety of Revenge can be nice but I find I get more from the other combo and the freedom it brings.

Path + Masque looks evil. I'll have to try that out