Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi! I am rather new to the hobby and have about 12 games under my belt. I have had a string of five matches with one nice guy at my flgs.
Note: All games are played with a healthy amount of terrain and just simple "Kill eachother" which is modified kill points.
Our first game was 2000 points of Salamanders versus 2000 points of Slaanesh CSM with Slaanesh demons as allies. We had a pretty close match with me stealing the win with some crucial saves being made as Vulkan He Stan managed to bring down his Keeper of Secrets with a little help from warp instability. My army was a CAD + First company strike force. Everything of mine started in rhinos minus the two dreads. His was unbound and 100% footslog.

2nd game was a 2100 point match featuring much of the same, but this time I rolled right over him. He even had a demon prince spawn from a challenge on the be Instant deathed by a dread. He didnt like that I brought everything in rhinos so he asked me to not play that army again.

3rd game comes up (2100 points) and I ask him if I can transport spam as Orks to which he says yes. Our match happens and he brings much of the same list with an added predator (add my suggestion) and I bring my Ork Deffwing which is Bullyboyz(15 mega nobs), a ork horde (for 3 warbosses to lead said Nobs) and the blitz brigade for 5 battlewagons. I roll over him again taking minimal casualties. He thinks the list is OP and asks me not to bring it.

4th game is 2500 points. He brings much of the same list now with a landraider and added goodies and I bring a pure shooty Ork list featuring Buzzgobs big mek stompa which I did tell him I was bringing in advance. I shoot him off the table with acceptable losses (I lost like 40 boyz, but whos counting? ). One of his characters ascend to daemonhood after shanking a mek only to get gunned down by 12 Lootas the very next turn. He tells me not to bring that list again.

5th game is 2100 points Imperial Guard and SM allies (arriving in the Skyhammer formation with) against his now modified Slaanesh list with no Slaanesh demon allies. I roll first turn, bring in the Skyhammer and destroy half his army turn 1 shooting phase with the guardsmen not really getting to do much. Note I went full on with the Skyhammer as it was about 1,100 points of my 2,100 army. I was set up to wipe out his predator and a noise marine squad in the assault phase before he conceded turn 1 my shooting phase (All he got to do was deploy and make saving throws).

Naturally he was obviously annoyed so I bought him a slaanesh painted CSM dreadnought from the used bin of our store and gave it to him as a gift to try and smooth things over. Now he took it in stride and never took issue with me as a person, but it did leave me wondering if my lists make me "That guy" or more accurately "TFG".

Oh and I did play two matches against another guy at the store. 1st was my SM salamander list which his nurgle butchered with relative ease. Our 2nd game I told him I was bringing Orks and he brought his IG with a good mix of flamers, missles and plasma. I rolled right over him as he didnt have the tools to stop all my armor 2 saves and front armor 14 battle wagons from my Ork Deffwing.

Both their armies were either all unbound or just CADs. As you can see I make use of multiple formations. At this point I really dont know what to bring anymore. All my lists are apparently broken, cheesy or meta, but personally I just think they brought pretty weak lists. The first guy told me he thought I was going too try hard with my Salamanders, but I see it as just sticking to their fluff. The list was entirely based on flamers and meltas to the point where my Librarian (who was worthless every game) rolled on the pyromancy table. So as you can see I am coming across as defensive because honestly at this point I am starting to think that I may be TFG which is what I hate in games. Something has to be up when Orks get called OP and cheesy.

I will admit to bringing anti air mek gunz in my shooty ork list to deal with the first guys flying demons as well. So you can get me on list tailoring for bringing anti air after fighting the mostly same list for 4 weeks.

Do I need to only bring CADs or is it the lack of actual mission types that are bringing about these one sided matches? Would throwing a couple of games with poor lists/tactically stupid decisions help my image to where I don't come across as a power gamer?

TLDR: Am I TFG?

Have you considered swapping armies for a game with friend #1?

The only decent part of the Chaos Marine codex are Plaguemarines, Hellturkies and Oblits/Havocs. Everything else is so badly out of date that it isn't even funny anymore.
In short, you're playing with one of the top end books in Vanilla Marines, and/or using among the best of the best that Orks can produce, against the absolute worst codex I nthe game right now!

And yeah, using a fully blinged-out Skyhammer vs. CSM's is a massive dick move. No one needs 'help' crushing Chaos Marines, let alone a list that isn't even using a single one of our few decent units.

My suggestion is to offer to 'swap armies' with him. let him have a chance to use your list(s), and likely he'll see that they're not quite as cheese as he claims. (Skyhammer being the exception - that really was a TFG move!)
And on the reverse, you'll get the chance to understand just how demoralising it is to be a Chaos Marine player right now, especially for anyone who doesn't want to play 'Codex: Plague Marines + Friends'

Chaos right now is simply stuck with 5th ed rules and play styles, with a model line that hasn't seen any proper updates or new toys in 10-15+ years! Outside of playing Daemons + a sprinkling of CSM's, and/or playing an IA:13 list w/CSM bolted on, the army is simply too badly out of date to compete except against equally watered down lists.

You bought the guy a dreadnought, you are certainly not tfg.

Tfg is too busy talking about how superior his net list is while telling you to l2p nub to care about the enjoyment of other players.

That guy is at a disadvantage first off by playing csm. Also sounds like you're just way more knowledgeable and better at the game. Buddy just needs some time and practice. You sound like an intelligent self aware person and not tfg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maelstrom missions may help him however.

Try a few different mission types rather than KPs too.
Some armies will blow others off the table but cant capture objs or kill psykers or hold the line etc etc.
Might help in terms of bringing more balance to the games.

Getting Daemonhood on his HQs is a shame. And pretty unlucky to have it happen on 2 games.

Play maelstorm + swap armies at least once. You might understand his pain. CSM are not an easy army to play now. It's possible to win but it's even harder when he has no nurgle spawns + biker sorc/lord the best unit in the dex. CSM also work pretty well with daemon allies. They can make a neat board controle + rush list bringing some daemon allies with an icon and a bunch of solo obliterators and mutilators. Backed up by nurgle bikers or spawns they're doing good enough in maelstorm.

To those who suggested swapping armies: No I have not thought of that, but I can see the logic behind it. I personally would not want to do it as
1. I dont really like slaanesh.
2. I will admit that I dont want to play his obviously weaker lists. Now if I knew something about CSM to where I could make a list then sure maybe. I have no problem playing weaker factions (Orks are my main with over $1,500 in them), but I still want to use all the tools at my disposal to at least try and bring it. I will bring a knife to a gun fight, but I at least want it to be sharp.

However after thinking that scenario through that does open up a whole new perspective on his side of things.

@ Lord Yayula they were his sergeants from a noise marine and possessed squad not his HQs.

In my first game ever, we played 750 pts, my Crimson Fists (Melta tactical squad in a rhino, scout squad in an LSS, lascannon Devs, and a captain with a combo plasma command squad) vs. His old codex Neurons (Codex Decurion was not out yet). He brought three annihilation barges. And this was before they were nerfed. I was blasted off the table by the end of turn 3.

Whether he meant to or not, this guy was being that guy. I think you might have had a similar thing happen. You weren't intentionally being that guy, but you were still being that guy. You brought very potent formations (1st Company and Skyhammer) against Chaos Space Marines. Skyhammer is good against GOOD armies.

My recommendation. Tone your army down. If the other guy has zero chance to win, they won't have fun. If you aren't in a tournament, fun is the priority, winning should take some effort.

Any csm list you make will be obviously weaker. That's the point of the army swap. No matter how you write a list with that dex, its going to be weaker. Then he can win with your good armies and you can see what it's like to be him, struggling with an old antique musket when you have an m16.

Really though, it's not your fault gw is fethed about releases and are content to let csm rot in its own filth.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In my first game ever, we played 750 pts, my Crimson Fists (Melta tactical squad in a rhino, scout squad in an LSS, lascannon Devs, and a captain with a combo plasma command squad) vs. His old codex Neurons (Codex Decurion was not out yet). He brought three annihilation barges. And this was before they were nerfed. I was blasted off the table by the end of turn 3.

Whether he meant to or not, this guy was being that guy. I think you might have had a similar thing happen. You weren't intentionally being that guy, but you were still being that guy. You brought very potent formations (1st Company and Skyhammer) against Chaos Space Marines. Skyhammer is good against GOOD armies.

My recommendation. Tone your army down. If the other guy has zero chance to win, they won't have fun. If you aren't in a tournament, fun is the priority, winning should take some effort.

I will admit I knew Skyhammer was cheesy, but I had never used it before (nor Grav weapons) so I wanted to see what was up. Now I do and its gross.

How would you (and the others reading this) suggest toning down my lists? Only stick to CADs or unbound? What are CSM actually good against? Perhaps throwing a game or two would be a wise choice in the long run?

Csm are decent against units that are over costed as much as they are, or impotent until melee.

Take lots of points of weak assault choices and he might win.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In my first game ever, we played 750 pts, my Crimson Fists (Melta tactical squad in a rhino, scout squad in an LSS, lascannon Devs, and a captain with a combo plasma command squad) vs. His old codex Neurons (Codex Decurion was not out yet). He brought three annihilation barges. And this was before they were nerfed. I was blasted off the table by the end of turn 3.

Whether he meant to or not, this guy was being that guy. I think you might have had a similar thing happen. You weren't intentionally being that guy, but you were still being that guy. You brought very potent formations (1st Company and Skyhammer) against Chaos Space Marines. Skyhammer is good against GOOD armies.

My recommendation. Tone your army down. If the other guy has zero chance to win, they won't have fun. If you aren't in a tournament, fun is the priority, winning should take some effort.

I will admit I knew Skyhammer was cheesy, but I had never used it before (nor Grav weapons) so I wanted to see what was up. Now I do and its gross.

How would you (and the others reading this) suggest toning down my lists? Only stick to CADs or unbound? What are CSM actually good against? Perhaps throwing a game or two would be a wise choice in the long run?

Probably just stick to a CAD and see where it gets you. I don't really think you need formation bonuses to help you out. I don't know enough about Orks(besides how to kill them ) so I can't give you pointers there. I wouldn't throw games, because that is worse than beating him outright.

He'll learn nothing by throwing a game.
We've all been tabled plenty of times Im sure and whilst frustrating and demoralising if he cant learn from his mistakes or at least try and adapt then throwing a game is just molly coddling him.

Do you think hes a competent player overall? Do you think with a different army or top tier list he could do well?

I know you said you are new but you seem to have quite a lot for a new player (orks, salamanders, guard, etc.) and a very solid understanding of how to use them. Were these players, especially the first, new to the game?

You should start playing Maelstrom of War -missions (or even better, hybrid scenarios that are popular in tournaments, inwhich you're playing an Eternal War mission and a Maelstrom of War mission simultaneously, you then add up the victory points from both in the end.)

Just playing killpoints leads to an arms race inwhich the killiest list wins, nothing else matters. In hybrid scenarios or pure Maelstrom you also need to be durable, and mobile. Just standing and shooting doesn't cut it, and it invites more army diversity if you want to do well.

You could check out the ITC -missions that are easily found with Google and try those. They're fairly balanced.

Ratius wrote:He'll learn nothing by throwing a game.
We've all been tabled plenty of times Im sure and whilst frustrating and demoralising if he cant learn from his mistakes or at least try and adapt then throwing a game is just molly coddling him.

Do you think hes a competent player overall? Do you think with a different army or top tier list he could do well?

Well for the throwing the game bit I would do it to make him feel good about winning and myself look like less of a tryhard. My fear is that if I win too much that will just make people not want to play with me which is a bad thing in my relatively small 40k community.

He has played for far longer than I have (at least sense the start of 6th edition), and seems tactically sound. I think his weakness really is just the fact that he is playing CSM and makes poor list building decisions. In a 2,500 point he had TWO sources of ap2 and only two.

Dramagod2 wrote:I know you said you are new but you seem to have quite a lot for a new player (orks, salamanders, guard, etc.) and a very solid understanding of how to use them. Were these players, especially the first, new to the game?

I actively watch battle reports, read the hell out of Dakka dakka and keep up to date with 40k news. The only reason I know what I do (which isnt really that much compared to a lot of guys here) is because I study the game and absorb everything I can about it. Never even played against Eldar, but I read enough to make me scared of even the thought. lol

And on my collection: My guard army is pretty small (Can barely manage 1000 points) and my Space Marine army is a mix of different chapter (75% Imperial Fists) that I just proxy in as whatever chapter. My FLGS is pretty chill on proxies. Most of the vehicles I use are Ork or ork conversions of Imperial tanks/transports. Its really the main reason I dont play at my local GW store as the manager allows for no proxies at all including chapter color scheme for the purposes of chapter tactics.

He has played for longer than I have since at least the start of 6th edition. The 2nd guy is in the same boat as well.

Don't throw a game. He'll know. You'll know. It's really disrespectful.

If you're not willing to swap armies, at least consider swapping codex's. Understanding the strengths and limitations of each others armies really brings a new perspective on the game.

That's suggestion number one. It might not benefit you, but it'll certainly benefit him. Additionally, consider the option of changing your chapter. Black Templar, for example, against Chaos might make for a really fun fluffy game. Especially if you Ham it up with silly one liners and "forging the narrative".

People use FTN as a tongue in cheek commentary on the ridiculous outlook of GW on the state of the game, but I find it to be thoroughly enjoyable. Example:

CSM Sarge wrecks 8 space marines, proceeds to die on a dangerous terrain test.

Silly: After wrecking face, Marine McSwagerton pimp walks too hard, slips on the gore-soaked shale in the ruined street and takes a broken, rusty pipe to the underarm just a little too hard. He's not dead (no one dies pimp walking, come on now) but he's certainly stuck there, conveniently out of reach of his face-wrecking equipment.

Serious: A triumphant roar erupts from the half-torn throat of the aspiring champion amidst the shredded remains of the loyalists. A burst of sniper fire catches his shoulder as he sprints towards his next victims. The shots throw him off balance slightly, just enough to force a heavy step on the crumbling shale. It gives way, revealing a long buried land mine from the first days of the siege. Fast as he is, the misfortune costs him he leg below the knee. This fight is over for him.

Doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong, and I don't think you should be told what lists to bring each time, you have just as much right to ask him to bring a stronger list, which I doubt he'd be happy with. Have you thought about sitting down with him and helping him write a better list? If it is something you are good at, he might find you sharing your wisdom and reasons for making selections more beneficial than just swapping armies.

Another thing that you can do is expand your gaming circle to include 'better' players that will be more challenging for you.

As for the manager not allowing you to change chapter tactics, that's rubbish and against the rules. The last codex said that you had to use the tactics of the chapter or parent chapter of your paint scheme, but that was dropped in the new one. Fluff has nothing to do with the game, not every player cares about the fluff, and no one has the right to tell you that your salamanders can't be blue with an upside down omega symbol on them.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:


Well for the throwing the game bit I would do it to make him feel good about winning and myself look like less of a tryhard. My fear is that if I win too much that will just make people not want to play with me which is a bad thing in my relatively small 40k community.

He has played for far longer than I have (at least sense the start of 6th edition), and seems tactically sound. I think his weakness really is just the fact that he is playing CSM and makes poor list building decisions. In a 2,500 point he had TWO sources of ap2 and only two.

The amount of time one has played the game is mostly meaningless. There's been too many constant rules/edition/army changes, and the balance has always been completely out of whack.

Keep in mind that literally the only sources of ranged ap2 in the CSM codex are;
- Meltaguns & Mutli-meltas, which are exclusive to Dreads + Oblits
- Plasma guns, which are inherently risky
- Plasma cannons, which are exclusive to Oblits, who can't fire the same weapon in consecutive turns, because... "Reasons"
- Ectoplasma cannons, which come on a 200+pts platform and are 3" blasts with BS3, because... "Daemon enginelolz!"
- Lascannons, which are overcosted on already massively overcosted platforms
- Blastmasters, which are a 3" template weapon and limited to Noise Marines

And of those options, only Lascannons + Blastmaster have a range greater than 24".

Chaos Marines have no real toys. We haven't received a single new weapon option outside of a few vehicles going on now 18+ years! Meanwhile, Loyalists have had their armoury explode with options, as well as been given much better versions of what was our own unique toys... (Hello Cents + Ironclads)

As mentioned, pretty much our book "competitively" comes down Nurgle Lords & unmarked Sorcs on bikes, Nurgle Spawn, MSU Nurgle Bikers, Helldrakes, solo Nurgle/Tzeentch Oblits, MSU Plaguemarines... (hence the name 'Codex: Nurgle + Friends'!)
If you don't like/want to play Nurgle, then you're sol.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I actively watch battle reports, read the hell out of Dakka dakka and keep up to date with 40k news. The only reason I know what I do (which isnt really that much compared to a lot of guys here) is because I study the game and absorb everything I can about it. Never even played against Eldar, but I read enough to make me scared of even the thought. lol

And on my collection: My guard army is pretty small (Can barely manage 1000 points) and my Space Marine army is a mix of different chapter (75% Imperial Fists) that I just proxy in as whatever chapter. My FLGS is pretty chill on proxies. Most of the vehicles I use are Ork or ork conversions of Imperial tanks/transports. Its really the main reason I dont play at my local GW store as the manager allows for no proxies at all including chapter color scheme for the purposes of chapter tactics.

He has played for longer than I have since at least the start of 6th edition. The 2nd guy is in the same boat as well.

And this here is likely the big disconnect... You're obviously into the full-on competitive side of things, while he is in it just for gaks & giggles.
There's nothing wrong with either approach, but obviously, you need to come down a bit more to his level in order to ensure that he can have some fun instead of just being constantly steamrolled by someone who's obviously taking things more seriously.

And as others have said, playing nothing but "kill everything" is putting him at an even more massive disadvantage, since his army is utterly incapable of playing those types of games outside of a very limited cookie-cutter build. (ie: go Nurgle or go home)
Playing more objective based missions will help him to at least feel like he's achieving things during the game, instead of just watching a much better army remove handfuls of his stuff each turn.

Also, stop using Formations. Chaos have almost nothing outside of 3 Hellbrute formations and the Khornekin stuff. (which is sadly, among the worst overall of the 7.5 style books, with only the Gorepack & Slaughtercult being worth a damn)
Just play regular CAD's as you really don't need any of the 'free perks' that formations add, especially when he's not really using any of the few top end units that Chaos Marines can bring.

OP you remind me a bit of myself. I was very interested in just absorbing everything I could when I got into the game.

There is a lot of good advice here. The best of which is to tone it down a bit when playing with these guys. These guys sound like they just play the game for fun or narrative. I would stick to a single CAD and not spam all the best options. Have some fun with you list making. It also helps to play other missions other than KPs.

Doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong, and I don't think you should be told what lists to bring each time, you have just as much right to ask him to bring a stronger list, which I doubt he'd be happy with. Have you thought about sitting down with him and helping him write a better list? If it is something you are good at, he might find you sharing your wisdom and reasons for making selections more beneficial than just swapping armies.

Another thing that you can do is expand your gaming circle to include 'better' players that will be more challenging for you.

As for the manager not allowing you to change chapter tactics, that's rubbish and against the rules. The last codex said that you had to use the tactics of the chapter or parent chapter of your paint scheme, but that was dropped in the new one. Fluff has nothing to do with the game, not every player cares about the fluff, and no one has the right to tell you that your salamanders can't be blue with an upside down omega symbol on them.

Be careful with this. It can come across as extremely condescending. We had this discussion within our group and it got very heated. My group is split between some guys who really like to Forge the Narrative (not jokingly) and some who like more competitive play. I personally have found myself leaning more into the narrative gaming aspect. It's not that many of us don't know how to write a competitive list. It's that many of us don't like to play competitively and instead play for fluff. I just got done running a linear campaign that was narrative driven. It may have been some the best 40k I've played in years. Everything was just so much fun!



On a side note, these kinds of issues have been leading a few of us to drop 40k for now and play Horus Heresy. HH is a much more balanced system while still using the basic rules from the 40k rulebook. Rigid FOCs, limits on LoW, no formations, and rules that encourage and reward players for building fluffy armies have made my journey into HH extremely enjoyable.

It sounds like you have a massive advantage over your friend. You are super-engaged on learning everything, have a strong handle on what's good and what isn't, and already have collected a massive collection. There are a LOT of reasons why you're out-performing your friend, but there's also a LOT of ways that you can fix this:

#1 - Start Small

You've jumped right into 2000+ point games. You may be familiar with things, but your friend isn't. Your friend is likely spamming expensive upgrades or units just to help them get up to this points level, and they have very little understanding of what each unit does in this size of a game. Scale way back at first. Try doing some 500-point games. Yeah, 500. Maybe 750. Force both of you to take 1 HQ and 1 Troop minimum, and do not under any circumstance bring a Super-Heavy. It's important that your opponent gets a chance to use his different units and get a feel for them. In a 2000+ point game, whole units will just be deleted first turn, and your opponent likely won't have a sense of the board-game state they should be working towards. At very small point games it's difficult to just "delete" units right away, so your friend will get a chance to flex their army's muscle before you trounce them.

#2 - Help Improve His List

Your opponent isn't just playing Chaos Space Marines (widely considered the worst codex out there right now), but is also apparently taking the worst of the worst. Chaos Land Raiders are one of the most expensive models in the game, but also one of the worst. They don't even get Power of the Machine Spirit to help them out. You have more experience, so you should make a bad list for yourself, and then help your opponent make a list that's a hard-counter to yours. I know people say don't necessarily do this, but if they're new to the game and not rapidly-absorbing and collecting as you seem to be, they will not really know. Let them see what happens when they use something good. You also have multiple armies, so consider letting him take your Space Marines as allies against your Orks. Say that the Space Marines are turning to Chaos, or that the Chaos force is trying to redeem itself. Let him use a Skyhammer against you.

#3 - You Must Unlearn What You Have Learned

Ask yourself seriously; are you playing for having an evenly-matched game, or are you playing to dominate? For the sounds of it, you're playing to dominate. There's nothing wrong with this and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. However, it does mean that your friend is never going to have a fun game against you unless they adopt the same mentality. Unfortunately, this isn't terribly likely. If you want to play with your friend, you need to start unlearning all these things you've been reading about and all those battle reports you've been watching. Yes, those are the strongest things in the game. Yes, it's fun to take the strongest things once in a while. It's unfortunate, but the weakest part of this game right now is that you actually need to sit down and talk with you friend about the kinds of games you want. If you want to be matching your best against his best, while he wants to see Chaos Space Marines butcher the weak, then you two are not going to have great gaming experiences and they will remain one-sided. Since you're much more advanced a player with many more forces, I'd recommend restraining yourself a bit and try to engage your opponent with far less optimal choices.

@pdawg517 I automatically assume a degree of tact on making the offer. I wasn't advocating a "you're clearly crap at this so let me show you how to do it properly" approach. Some people genuinely don't know how to put a decent list together, never mind a competitive one.

I'm not sure I understand why you have questions about this. You are taking formations, and he isn't. That's part of the social contract of 40k, asking how many CADs / Formations the other guy is taking, and matching the same.

Why do you even need to ask? Would you be asking why you win if you take more points than he does?

Formations are not created equal, but taking more formations is roughly the same as taking more points. Shouldn't this be obvious?

@pdawg517 I automatically assume a degree of tact on making the offer. I wasn't advocating a "you're clearly crap at this so let me show you how to do it properly" approach. Some people genuinely don't know how to put a decent list together, never mind a competitive one.

All good! Just making that statement more for a general purpose than pointing you out. Those kinds of discussions without some kind of tact can end up in a charlie foxtrot like it did in our group. If someone obviously just has no clue then I don't see an issue. I give out bits of list advice even when not playing competitive lists. Sometimes people just take pointless upgrades and waste points. Case in point in one of my 1500 pt HH games a buddy of mine brought a 20 man assault marine blob with all meltabombs. That is 100pts of meltabombs in 1 unit for a 1500 point game. We weren't playing competitive armies but my buddy could have just taken the 1 on the SGT and spent the rest of the points on better HQ upgrades and a few more bodies on the field.

The best thing as you said is to use some tact which in our group the people who play more competitive didn't do!

The ork lists don't seem all that ridiculous although you should have warned him of the stompa. I think in general if he is footslogging and you are mechanized he will have a hard time. I play footslogging orks and fast mechanized armies are the hardest to deal with after artillery. Also maybe he should try going bound and using some rhinos and such. I've had some good matches against slaneesh Marines with my orks. But if I were to bring battle wagons and naughts and such to only his footslogging infantry he would be crushed because he needs to break the armor and then the dudes while I just get to blow more infantry off the board while I advance. That's my view anyway. You might also need to help him learn some of what you have so that he can compete more easily.

@cranect he said that he warned the guy about the stompa.

I think he is the problem. Rather than going away and at least trying to work out how to beat your armies, he is just straight away giving up and asking you to do the work of coming up with a weaker list. If he'd tried a few times and just couldn't come up with anything, then asked you not to use it again against him then that would be a different matter. Tfg would still turn up with a list that he knew his opponent couldn't beat with the collection they have.

If you're playing orks, you're by default not TFG.

That being said, chaos is pretty poorly off nowadays, and his list isn't terribly good.

If you do play him, bringing even competitive (for orks) stuff (bully boyz, buzzgob's stompa, green tide, etc) is probably too much for a poorly optimized CSM list.

Hell, if he plays 100% unbound and footslog, I'd be inclined to do the same - deff dreads, stormboyz, kommandos, burnas, stuff like that. You don't have to bring an army of grots, but understand that clearly his army and list is having issues, so respond in kind.

I also might keep to smaller (~2000) point games. you said that one was pretty even, overall. Also, my impression of CSM players in big games, especially new ones, just go crazy with marks and wargear that are just huge point sinks, and wind up with a 2500 point list that uses the same amount of models as their 2000 one with barely any more stopping power. So unless he's bringing substantially more models, larger point games probably aren't doing him any favors.

Honestly, as great as it is to bring the best stuff, I think you find it's more fun to get to play goofy stuff that's more in line with your opponent.

I know a lot of peoe in the same shoes as you-they get into a game with a friend and it turns out they're more tactically minded and more into the list building aspect and their friend doesn't enjoy losing every game.

This is an expensive hobby. If you have less competitive units and he doesn't have more competitive options (if he has CSM that's likely) then reduce the power of your list. If you win about half the time, and lose about half the time, that's good.

Focus on the tactical rather than strategic game and learn to use the less powerful stuff. Think of it like working out with weights to get stronger and appreciate the variety you get to enjoy rather than lack of competitive options. There will always be opponents wanting to play the most competitive tenth of your codex. It's the other 90% that's fun and interesting but collects dust.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
If you're playing orks, you're by default not TFG.

That being said, chaos is pretty poorly off nowadays, and his list isn't terribly good.

If you do play him, bringing even competitive (for orks) stuff (bully boyz, buzzgob's stompa, green tide, etc) is probably too much for a poorly optimized CSM list.

Definitely not TFG... but still. A FLGS un-optimized take-all-comers list from Eldar, Necrons, or Tau might be able to handle some of this stuff easily. Maybe if you have a really competitive local Meta it would. But for casual players, Blitz Brigade, Bully Boyz, Buzzgob's Stompa, and the Skyhammer formation have a really good shot at rolling over your opponent. Especially bringing Buzzgob's Stompa instead of the Codex: Orks Stompa is a bit cheesy. The Codex: Orks stompa might be overcosted... but Buzzgob's Stompa is a flat-out misprint.

I have two suggestions for you to have better games with your friend before he gets sick of playing with you:

1) Stop using formations. Bring a normal CAD. Do you find that concept restrictive? Well good it'll be a challenge for you then.
2) Play at lower point levels than 2000. It sounds to me like the forces you have at your disposal scale up in points better than your opponent. He will probably have a better shot at the 1500 point level.

At least you're not playing Necrons.