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Been dealing with what seems to be some sloppy rules writing from GW that's left me a bit confused. Most of the special rules are pretty straightforward as to whether or not they're "Contagious"

And They Shall Know No Fear, for example, says "A unit that contains at least one model." That's straightforward, nothing to really figure out there. What I call a contagious rule, if somebody has it, everyone else catches it.

Fleet says "A unit composed entirely of models with" very simple, if you add an IC or something to the unit that doesn't have Fleet, you can't use fleet.

Dunestrider, however, says "A unit with." Based on how it's a movement based... Thing rather Fleet-esque, really, I'd assume it means "A unit composed entirely"... But, well, that's not what it says. You could just as easily argue it means "A unit that contains at least one model with" as, then, the unit "has" the special rule. So if you, say, have a Battle Brother independent character who joins the unit... What on earth happens?

I mean, if it just said "A Model with" that'd be easy, some models could move further, and you'd have to watch your unit cohesion, but... That's not what it says. Help!

Most seem to consider "a unit with" to not require the entire unit to have.

Your mileage may vary.

If it indeed simply says a unit with, then that's poor rules writing and it allows all ic's attached to it to benefit from the rule.

Unfortunately due to GW's notoriously bad proofreading abilities, this has become something of a...touchy issue with a lot of rules. There isn't even much of a historical precedent cuz the rules sort of flipflop between whether or not someone magically gains an ability just because the unit has it (if I remember 4th and 5th didn't like one unit granting it to a character and vice versa, while 6th said if any unit had it, they all did).

In general I would play it with The Gentleman's rule; if it sounds a bit too good to be true, don't be an ass about it and talk about it with your opponent beforehand if you know if you'll be using it and dicing off if it occurs unexpectedly. If you talk and your opponent refuses, be the bigger man and back down, even if you lose because of it.

Okay, thanks. Honestly, I thought that might be how it played out in RAW. I really feel like RAI must be the opposite in this case, but that's one less thing for me to worry about while I'm putting this prospective force together.

Thanks, again, for the prompt response.

Edit: Ohnoes I've been ninja'd. I suppose that is a sensible interpretation too. Mostly it's just that I was trying to figure out if tossing an IC in meant I lost my bonus movement or if they magically gained the ability to keep up, since it changes which units I'd put the ICs in (For example, they'd be banned from melee units. Not losing 3" of free charge range, thank you very much). Since ICs don't join forces until Deployment, I can just shuffle that around based on the decision between me and my opponent, right?

RAI is probably opposite. But their writers don't know how to turn RAI into RAW.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
RAI is probably opposite. But their writers don't know how to turn RAI into RAW.

It's weird, because, looking at Fleet, they clearly DO know how to differentiate the 3 (Just for model, contagious, or entire unit must have), but they just... Didn't here.

GW honestly doesn't even have a consistent syntax for even writing their own rules.

like, a lot of formations specify "one" of a model that can take more members (like dreadnoughts), but then also lists "one unit" of another model in another formation then tack a restriction that "this unit cannot take any more models" (I'm talking about the Deathwing Redemption force here). They clearly already have some writers that can do this, but have zero internal consistency, which results in rule crapups like these.

TheDarkGun wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
RAI is probably opposite. But their writers don't know how to turn RAI into RAW.

It's weird, because, looking at Fleet, they clearly DO know how to differentiate the 3 (Just for model, contagious, or entire unit must have), but they just... Didn't here.

Yeah, sometimes they get it right and are specific enough to do justice to the differences between the rules, but it's also pretty common that they don't and just feth it up. There was another thread about warp jump generators earlier on today that had the exact same issue.

Special Rules have several different interactions.

Base: Only the models with the rule can use them. See Relentless.

USR unit rule: Unit has one model with this rule Benefits. Good for either IC or unit possession. See Stubborn.

USR full unit rule: Unit requires all models in order to benefit. See Fleet.

Datasheet unit rule: Unit Benefits from rule. Not usable if an IC with this joins a unit without it.

Datasheet IC unit rule: An IC has a rule and can benefit any unit they join. Very rare these days.

I'm not going to say that that doesn't make sense, but is there somewhere that's clarified or is that just how people have interpreted the writing over time?

TheDarkGun wrote:
I'm not going to say that that doesn't make sense, but is there somewhere that's clarified or is that just how people have interpreted the writing over time?

The latter

CrownAxe wrote:

TheDarkGun wrote:
I'm not going to say that that doesn't make sense, but is there somewhere that's clarified or is that just how people have interpreted the writing over time?

The latter

Not quite. It takes a review of the rules in multiple places in order for the situation to be defined. Though, keep in mind, these titles are just my terms I made up on the spot for them to get them across.

For the Base definition, we look at the introduction of the Special Rules in the rulebook:


For the USR unit definition, we look start with the Independent Character rule:

Since Stubborn and Blind are referenced, we will add them to the list:

USR Unit rules are set up so that units with the rule can benefit ICs that join can benefit, or so that ICs with the rule can benefit the units they join. They are so universal, in order to properly translate across, it needs the back and forth the "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" provides.

All the rest of the rule types provide their own stipulations and requirements, though some may link back to some of the references in the IC rule (mostly ongoing affects).

For the USR full unit type of rule I referenced Fleet to provide an example:

In order for the Fleet rule to function and provide its benefits, all models in the unit must have the Fleet rule. An IC is considered as much a part of the unit for this rule as it is for Running, Charging, Shooting, being Shot at, etc. Joined ICs must have Fleet in order for a unit with Fleet to access its Benefits, but also participates in the benefits as well.

I didn't provide a Datasheet unit rule example since I don't know which army the OP was using to provide. Now, to understand how Datasheet unit rules work, we have to understand how Datasheets work. First off, Datasheets provide Special Rules that apply to the models in the unit listed. From the Skitarii codex datasheet legend (referenced because of the Dunestrider rule in the OP):

These are rules that are not Universal to the game and either specific to the datasheet providing it, or at least provided in the codex's appendix. Because of this, there is usually no need for the "one model with this special rule" requirement, since all the models in the unit upon "purchase" will have the rule before any IC can join them, and therefore, therefore will a model will always have the rule while the unit exists.

Now, remember that an IC becomes part of any unit it joins for all rules purposes? That still applies and becomes very critical for this situation. If an IC without this rule joins a unit with this rule, the IC is affected by the rule because the UNIT is affected by the rule because it is operating as a model within the unit.

However, if an IC with this rule joins a unit without this rule, the unit he joined does not have this rule and the IC is not operating as his own unit, but as a model in the unit he has joined. At this point, any benefits the rule provides are subsumed like the IC's unit identity.

Dunestrider is a good example of this. It is a rule that provides a benefit to a unit with this rule. Its benefits are applied to a unit's actions. Therefore, a joined IC will benefit from this rule, however, an IC with this rule would not be able to provide this benefit to a Tactical Marine Squad (for example) since the Tactical Marine Squad is not a unit with the Dunestrider rule.

Huh, that's the most reasonable, in depth reasoning for the interpretation I've seen so far (and amusingly still matches the original interpretations, though those were less "Because the rules actually say that" and more because "ambiguous wording seems to say it), I'll probably use that explanation if it comes up.

Still, obviously, talk/deal with it appropriately if it bothers my opponent in a casual setting (I assume a more formal setting will have a judge or something appropriate for such a determination), but that does seem to make sense. And it almost makes it seem like Games Workshop knows what it's doing. Oh wait, no, that's clearly wrong then. Heh.

except ongoing effects are not USRs....which is why they have different sections in the rules for ICS joining despite you trying to bunch them together in your post.

blaktoof wrote:
except ongoing effects are not USRs....which is why they have different sections in the rules for ICS joining despite you trying to bunch them together in your post.

I noted the separations in that post, Blacktoof, and it is not like anyone with the rulebook could not look it up for full verification.

Many USRs provide an ongoing affect to the unit, though, and many DSRs as well. Please note that in all of these arguments, save the earliest, I have never stated that the IC gains the rule, just that they are affected by the rule if the rule specifically states it affects the unit. Please learn the difference.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
except ongoing effects are not USRs....which is why they have different sections in the rules for ICS joining despite you trying to bunch them together in your post.

I noted the separations in that post, Blacktoof, and it is not like anyone with the rulebook could not look it up for full verification.

Many USRs provide an ongoing affect to the unit, though, and many DSRs as well. Please note that in all of these arguments, save the earliest, I have never stated that the IC gains the rule, just that they are affected by the rule if the rule specifically states it affects the unit. Please learn the difference.

I am aware of the difference.

effects however are ongoing, as in "ICs and joining units with ongoing effects" being the title of the rules section on the matter.

certain special rules, for example- flickerjump are in no way ongoing effects. After the flickerjump has happened the unit is not effected by anything. It is not like blind, or a malediction, or the unit being hit with perfect timing which gives an effect (which may also be an usr) which lasts for a phase, a player turn, a game turn, etc.

Sometimes arguments on USRs try and feather in how effects work to get the USR to work, when the USR is in no way an ongoing effect.

blaktoof wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
except ongoing effects are not USRs....which is why they have different sections in the rules for ICS joining despite you trying to bunch them together in your post.

I noted the separations in that post, Blacktoof, and it is not like anyone with the rulebook could not look it up for full verification.

Many USRs provide an ongoing affect to the unit, though, and many DSRs as well. Please note that in all of these arguments, save the earliest, I have never stated that the IC gains the rule, just that they are affected by the rule if the rule specifically states it affects the unit. Please learn the difference.

I am aware of the difference.

effects however are ongoing, as in "ICs and joining units with ongoing effects" being the title of the rules section on the matter.

certain special rules, for example- flickerjump are in no way ongoing effects. After the flickerjump has happened the unit is not effected by anything. It is not like blind, or a malediction, or the unit being hit with perfect timing which gives an effect (which may also be an usr) which lasts for a phase, a player turn, a game turn, etc.

Sometimes arguments on USRs try and feather in how effects work to get the USR to work, when the USR is in no way an ongoing effect.

Then you need to reread the actual rule, and not just the title of the rule.