Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I played a game last night vs Grey Knights, who have lots of psychic dice.
I have no psykers in an Allied CSM&CD Army. Managed to win but it just doesn't seem balanced

My flying Daemon Prince and Bloodthirster were at a massive disadvantage here as i can't really stop him casting Force (especially in unit with 2 attempts) meaning if he is on cover especially, i can't charge anything without losing my MC Daemons to Instant Death (no EW for some reason)
All his re-rolls even mean smaller units are a big threat.

Is it worth trying to take Psykers (need lots to make a difference) or is this just something i have to suck up. Him casting on a 4 and only denying on a 6 seems terrible game mechanics too.
It seems to be very strong in the GK players favour, i know it's "fluffy" but then where is my Khorne anti-magic if so?

Flying MCs fearing expensive grounded Marines? Why?

One unit cannot roll the activate Force twice, so not sure if you remember wrong or you opponent played wrong.

Without more information on your army and your opponent's, there isn't much assistance anyone can supply.

SJ

Fearing them because they get to strike 1st with Force Weapons.
Some units only get to cast once, but i only have d6 psychic dice per turn, they have a lot more plus the units with characters get to try twice.

I run standard mixed list really.
Lord with Marines in LR, Flying DP, Marines in Rhino, Vindicator, Obliterator, Terminators, Bloodthirster, Furies, Bloodletters, Plaguebearers

Vs Stern? Librarian, Dreadnight with Gatling and Flamer, Dreadnaught, two marine units and terminators.

Ajroo wrote:
units with characters get to try twice.

No they don't.

When I ally CSM and Daemons I usually have more psyker dice than the Grey Knights.. I'm typically fielding Tzeentch Daemons though and it looks like you're fielding Khorne.
Maybe try Khorne Daemonkin instead of Daemons? At least as your units die you get blood tithe points for more units. Also, there is a piece of wargear you can give your DP called The Bloodforged Armor.. It will give him a 3+ armor, FnP, and Eternal Warrior.

Ajroo wrote:
Fearing them because they get to strike 1st with Force Weapons.
Some units only get to cast once, but i only have d6 psychic dice per turn, they have a lot more plus the units with characters get to try twice.

Activating Force does not give you an initiative boost and allowing you to strike 1st. Units like your Bloodthirster would most definitely be striking 1st. Can you give examples of units that are hitting first and against what? This does not sound right since daemons usually have a very high initiative step.

Also the bit about units with characters in getting to try twice with psychic powers is wrong. A unit cannot cast the same power twice in one turn. Unless I am misunderstanding. Are you referring to shooting via the pyschic phase and then shooting with their storm bolters in the shooting phase?

@ Slaphead, Daemons don't have grenades, so he is probably referring to assaulting through cover. I have never seen a BT strike first on the charge because cover is a thing.

To the OP, as mentioned, a "unit" cannot attempt to cast the same power twice and ICs in a unit count as part of that unit. They also can only cast in his turn, meaning that if you can manage to charge units that have not cast Force, you can get 1 turn of assault before he can cast Force.

A note about denying: It has been my experience that more Warp Charge does not mean you can deny that easily. I often have twice the WC as my opponent, yet needing 6s to deny still means they get there powers. This is still better than previous editions in which Blessings could not be denied at all. My point here is that if you completely change your list just to be able to deny his Blessings (like Force or Hammerhand), you WILL be disappointed.

The only list changes I would recommend is to try Daemonettes and/or Flesh Hounds. I always field plenty of them and I have NEVER lost to Grey Knights in over 5 years (with my Daemons anyway)

He is saying his opponent is casting force and sitting in cover, which reduces all greater daemons to initiative 1 if you charge with them, meaning grey knights strike first. It's a common issue with daemons.

Get a skull cannon. Any unit you hit can be charged as if you had assault grenades.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
He is saying his opponent is casting force and sitting in cover, which reduces all greater daemons to initiative 1, meaning grey knights strike first. It's a common issue with daemons.

Get a skull cannon. Any unit you hit can be charged as if you had assault grenades.

^^^This. Although Skull cannons are sub-par in an All Comers list, they can be amazing for exactly this. You should drop the Terminators, Furies, Bloodletters and Plaguebearers for a Skullcannon, Flesh Hounds, Deamonettes and Nurglings (because they are cheap and Infiltrate onto objectives)

Especially against grey knights, who will be casting sanctuary exactly to reduce your advantages.

Ah, I didn't think about charging through cover, I just presumed open terrain. Bugger, that is tough on daemon players. Fluffwise, I would have thought a Bloodthirster would just use its wings to swoop over the cover or something. Shame the game mechanics don't allow that.

Do daemons have a lot of poisoned ranged attacks?

Thanks for the replies.
Yes i was referring to hiding in a forest or in terrain to make my BT strike at I1, force might not be so bad if i could go 1st.

It is intended to be a balanced list yes, but it's not khorne its Word Bearers but ill try see what the Khorne Daemonkin book offers.
I hadn't really wanted to change to lots of psykers so if that doesnt work anyway great as it wasnt my 1st choice.

I have fleshounds but only 1 allied FA slot so i tried the Furies, they have literally been game winning for me in a lot of other matchups but i do plan on swapping in the fleshounds

As for the powers, i had been told by my opponent that he can cast once with unit and once with librarian if needed!

Nope, none except a couple nurgle powers with bad range.

I very much advocate the skull cannon though. That way if he casts sanctuary, it doesn't condemn all your units within 12 to death before they get to strike. Slaanesh can even go before they do and rend. But as khorne, if you don't swing your blades you lose. And you only need to hit them to give your units assault grenades against them.

I agree the greater daemons should have some way other than a 125 point large blast to have assault grenades. I would buy them if they were a purchaseable option, definitely.

Another thing you can do is not charge anything that gets force. Daemons are usually faster than grey knights, charge something he didn't have the dice to buff and slaughter enough models for you to be able to play the "come get me" game he is. There's also always invisibility to make it unlikely for him to get a wound on you even if you are initiative 1.

Well... the psyker rules are completely messed up to begin with. The places where I play choose to treat 'psyker unit' to mean 'psyker' in the book and that pretty much fixes all the problems with the book's psyker rules. This means that a Librarian and the unit he's attached to can each cast the same power.

No matter what, you have to house rule the psychic phase.

Also, lets keep in perspective that the OP still won his game. Grey Knights are not OP if you house rule the psychic phase this way.

Well, the community I am from (and 99% of the internet I have been on) agrees that an IC in a unit is part of that unit and thus counts as attempting the power.

This is the main reason why "Screamer Star" is dead in 7th. In 6th ed, all the Heralds could cast the primaris witch fire (not sure the actually name). In 7th, however, once 1 Herald casts it, the others (being part of the "unit") now count has having attempted it, and thus can no longer attempt it, even if you have plenty of WC to cast it.

The only consensus I have seen for Psykers counting as separate is for bringing their own ML and generating WC.

If you and your opponent don't know the specifics of the Psychic Phase, then yes it will definitely upset the balance of your games. I suggest reviewing both the Psychic Phase and IC rules and politely explain to this GK player why he can't attempt Force twice with the same unit. Re-rolls from the Soul Glaive or Banner should be the only way to retry.

 raverrn wrote:

Ajroo wrote:
units with characters get to try twice.

No they don't.

The unit doesn't get to try twice, but if they fail, the IC can try and cast it. As it affects the unit, they do essentially get a second try.

 JamesY wrote:

 raverrn wrote:

Ajroo wrote:
units with characters get to try twice.

No they don't.

The unit doesn't get to try twice, but if they fail, the IC can try and cast it. As it affects the unit, they do essentially get a second try.

Nope. That might be a house rule of yours, but it isn't legal per the rules as written.

SJ

Any one psyker can only attempt to manifest a given power once in a psychic phase, regardless of if it failed or succeeded. Two psykers knowing the same power can of course each (attempt to) cast it, at different or same targets




So that would mean a squad with an IC could attempt twice. As the squad counts as a psyker and the IC is a psyker and has his own powers.

So unless your house rules are changing Rules as written.

Is one of the big reasons to always put your GK characters in units and take sanctic powers on them....it can give you two rolls at certain powers if you pull them.

There's plenty of threads in YMDC about the psychic phase. The rules as written are a jumbled mess. Just discuss it with your opponent before the game.

IDK rules seem pretty clear on this issue each psyker that knows the power can attempt it.

Squad = a psyker
GK Librarian= a psyker

Both in the same unit still = 2 psykers thus 2 attempts.

The Librarian doesnt increase the squads psyker abilities, nor gain the squads known powers just like the squad has seperate powers. Seems to be 2 very distinct psykers as far as the rules go....thus 2 attempts at force or say hammerhand if the librarian also pulled that power.

chaos45 wrote:
Any one psyker can only attempt to manifest a given power once in a psychic phase, regardless of if it failed or succeeded. Two psykers knowing the same power can of course each (attempt to) cast it, at different or same targets

So that would mean a squad with an IC could attempt twice. As the squad counts as a psyker and the IC is a psyker and has his own powers.

This is probably the Rules as Intended, but unfortunately the Rules as Written say a "unit" can only attempt once, not a "psyker" as it says in other parts of the rules.. Once an IC joins a unit, he is now part of that unit "for all intents and purposes" via the IC rules (don't have BRB with me, so I'm not sure the page #). SOOOOO if the "unit" attempts Force and fails, the IC counts as already attempting that power as well, thus cannot try "again".

In other parts of the Psyker rules it does refer to "psyker" and that is why you are allowed to count both ML and WC for the "unit" and IC separately, But for attempting powers, it clearly says "unit"

There are other RAW issues. For example, how do you calculate the number of Warp Charges? The BRB says to add up the Mastery Level of each psyker unit... but if my Librarian is attached to a brotherhood of psykers unit then what is the Mastery Level of that unit? Well, he's part of the unit for all rules purposes therefore I get 1 Warp Charge for the Brotherhood of Pyskers and 0 for the Librarian because he's currently part of the brotherhood unit.

The BRB throws the term 'psyker unit' around as if they were talking about a single model. Thus I choose to house rule all instances of 'pysker unit' to just be 'psyker' and that mostly fixes everything. But everyone makes up their own house rules based on what they think was intended.

Like I said, it's been discussed exhaustively in other places on the forum.

Hmm okay....

Been playing GK mainly on and off for years and never had an issue with them being seperate psykers with anyone Ive played with.

So guess just depends on how much of a rules lawyer people want to be....I tend not to play with people that want to argue rules instead of just play what is really a beer and pretzels game anymore.

If I want something with good rules and points that make sense I play other games for my tournaments/serious play. That have real rules, and semi-accurately pointed units.

Seems like its a case of the rules disagreeing within themselves...again tho this is the first time Ive ever seen anyone say they dont count as each psykers for force power use lol. Given I dont nor would I ever play a 40k tournament lol.

Fair enough, I don't think this is the topic to debate this anymore.

Back on topic, I think you have to talk to your opponent per game and agree how the powers will work and move from there. If you both agree that a unit with an IC can cast Force twice (which I would disagree with), than what you have to do as the Daemon player is set up you charges with single wound units vs. his units that cast Force and the Multi-wound units vs those that didn't.

Even with "casting Force twice", he shouldn't have enough charges to cast Force on every unit. That would be incredibly lucky. Since Daemons will be the more likely to be charging, you can mitigate some of his insta-death.

The funny thing about Daemons vs GK is that GK are "supposed" to be the best at killing Daemons, yet Daemons ideal opponents are Elite small forces that they can easily overrun. Over the last few editions, I have only every seen GK lose to Daemons (both in friendly and competitive games)

Also would note demons vs GK is a pretty rough match up for the demons....since well GKs are pretty much the demon killing space marines as their specialty.

Probably the one Army the GK have a real good chance to beat without taking allies.

chaos45 wrote:
Also would note demons vs GK is a pretty rough match up for the demons....since well GKs are pretty much the demon killing space marines as their specialty.

Probably the one Army the GK have a real good chance to beat without taking allies.

WOW, I just edited my earlier post with the exact opposite experience. For the last 2 years, Daemons have been a rather competitive army in my area, GK have not.

Interesting, Ive seen demons be very good against everyone but GK lol.........

Also depends alot on GK build as well, force is very powerful against larger demons and you have more than enough STR 4-7 shooting to deal with all the smaller stuff from what I have seen.

Psy grenades are also a wonderful thing....seen several greater demons die to psy grenades.........

Play style tactics is alot of it to...such as having a IC split from a squad in movement so that in shooting the IC And the squad can both throw a psy grenade at the same demon/unit.

Also the force staff for GK is awesome.....with the 7th ed codex giving the warding ability and +2 STR+ force+ hammerhand means on normal initiative you have GK striking with ID on normal initiative STR 8......against greater demons that rocks. Hammers you still need for vehicles...but sticks work fine against most monstrous creatures.

chaos45 wrote:


So guess just depends on how much of a rules lawyer people want to be....I tend not to play with people that want to argue rules instead of just play what is really a beer and pretzels game anymore.

If I want something with good rules and points that make sense I play other games for my tournaments/serious play. That have real rules, and semi-accurately pointed units.

Seems like its a case of the rules disagreeing within themselves...again tho this is the first time Ive ever seen anyone say they dont count as each psykers for force power use lol. Given I dont nor would I ever play a 40k tournament lol.

I am not one of those players that likes to slag off GW all day, but after playing mostly Warmachine for the last 18 months I've met lots of people who do.

I like the style of 40k, the models are mostly the nicest around (pp have nice ones now btw) and it can be a great game if played with friends. The tactical objectives are great too.
But the fact the players have to balance the game in what they take, rather than the rules team doing it is stupid, especially the wonky matches you can run into at tournaments. Also the lack of rules clarity is a joke, imagine the arguments this can cause in a tournament, as well as the timing/slow play hassle.

Sorry to say it but after experiencing the difference is Steamroller with 2 lists, clean rules and a deathclock i just can't see myself playing in a 40k tournament again, at least this edition.

I would love to play a few friendly games where silly rules don't ruin it for me though (and my MCs have Eternal Warrior)

With the issue of having to assault the GK in cover another way to play around this is to avoid them and force them to come out of said cover.

GK have pretty poor range for the most part and are not the fastest army around and in missions you are playing place your obj out in the open, use fast daemons to quickly get around the board, and play the missions primary obj as opposed to secondary like first blood and kill points. This combined with units like the skullcannon and units with a better range will allow you to gain either more favorable charges or score more points while containing him to a small section. I have seen CD beat GK numerous times, although its still not favorable overall and requires some good skill. Your daemons wont be to happy to be across the table from the GK but it should they should at least have a decent footing and not get rolled so badly.

Ya Ive dabbled in Warmachine/hordes not bad systems.

Is alot of games on the market anymore it was long ago that 40k was the only game in town and GW still hasnt realized that. Their financials are telling.

I still like alot of the 40k miniatures as well and its a common game alot of my friends enjoy, and for fun its great just dont be to serious about it lol.

As to Grey knights being slow.....not really....as if they are smart they are almost all deepstriking or teleporting dreadknights......Not to mention if the librarian gets the gate spell.