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With the sheer amount of fire power, high strength, D weapons and AP3 or lower out there, it got me thinking about the whole veterans upgrade. Sure it's nice to have an +1 attack and +1 Ld but beyond that there's not too much gained from it. Terminators also don't seem to be worth the points as they die to weight of fire, ap2 shots and the works. So, that got me thinking. What if vets were 2 wounds. It would offset the weight of fire and be an upgrade worth the purchase. It would also create a unit that can survive to earn it's points back. I know that some people would be like "No, that would make them too OP" but I don't think so. Having extra wounds wouldn't keep you alive from S:8 or higher and may mitigate the whole weight of fire but not completely.

Thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? Am I nuts?

Please leave a comment.

I can't think of any human like units that are not characters that have 2 wounds. ... Like... Necrons vangard obyron has 2 wounds. Should marine vets be equal to the walking bad ass that is obyron just because they survived some fights?

Lychguard have 1 wound also. Vets should be equal to that?

What I have learned most about 40kis crap is supposed to die. Everything. The big and the small. If you feel bummed because a unit you like dies easy consider that basically everything is one bad die roll away from dieing too.

Lance845 wrote:
I can't think of any human like units that are not characters that have 2 wounds. ... Like... Necrons vangard obyron has 2 wounds. Should marine vets be equal to the walking bad ass that is obyron just because they survived some fights?

Lychguard have 1 wound also. Vets should be equal to that?

What I have learned most about 40kis crap is supposed to die. Everything. The big and the small. If you feel bummed because a unit you like dies easy consider that basically everything is one bad die roll away from dieing too.

Ogryns. They have 3 wounds, but they are like 11 feet tall...

It's STUPID that Exarchs get two wounds AND the WS/BS/A stats.

Veteran Sergeants having two wounds wouldn't break anything. I don't think Veterans in general should just get two wounds though.

Eldar exarchs have 2 wounds. I think sergeants can have it as well.

As well as admech unit characters, no?

Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit. Also they are the ones who train their squads aspect warriors having themselves learned their art through their shrines phoenix lord

Although I'm not saying they are fairly priced compared to other races squad leader options

Exarchs having 2w's is one of many crimes against balance in the Eldar codex, it's not really a good comparison. I could see giving Vet Sergeants 2 wounds, it would go a long way towards justifying their high price cost when given equipment (a vet sarge with a power weapon costs 4pts more than a Terminator as it stands) but maybe not all Vets.

NickAtkins wrote:
Exarchs having 2w's is one of many crimes against balance in the Eldar codex, it's not really a good comparison. I could see giving Vet Sergeants 2 wounds, it would go a long way towards justifying their high price cost when given equipment (a vet sarge with a power weapon costs 4pts more than a Terminator as it stands) but maybe not all Vets.

All codexes should be balanced using eldar as the balancing point, on its own it's a good codex with lots of fun options generally both in its decurion formation and using a CAD (I would change the points on Scatter bikes and Wraith Knight and make a few TWEAKS though). And bear in mind also that all but Dire Avengers are non troops and all are T3

Giving two wounds to sergeants doesn't make sense lore wise, they are no more durable than the marines they lead. So just make the sergeants cheaper instead. Multiple wound models require more keeping track of and slow the game down. I would rather have more models than models with more than 1 wound

I personally disagree with bringing all Codexes up to Eldar's power level, if everyone has god-mode turned on the game becomes boring, but thats tangential to the OP.

The argument could be made that Chapter Masters are no tougher than the Marines they lead (Underneath their Armour) they were line marines at some point too after all.

What about ork nobz? Do they get 3?

It wouldn't be god mode of all were balanced together, as units considered godly would simply not be anymore because they have more things to counter them. I mean more that each unit is decent and you can build an army how you want and still have a balanced force that won't get stomped easily. It's why when I play against my guard opponent he gets 10%+ points and it is always a more closer and better game

That is true, but I think for a chapter master to get to his position he would have to be greater than his fellow marines and have greater experience contributing to his greater wounds. But the general rule is army leaders have more wounds across all armies so this is balanced

However then the same could be said about Veterans and veteran sergeants, that's where you compare with other armies squad leaders, Exarch I have already given a lore reason, mechanicus can be attributed to the fact that they are machines and the squad leaders are more machine as well as being tougher than the men they lead so get an extra wound. Which is why I still think the most lore friendly solution is to drop the point cost


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
What about ork nobz? Do they get 3?

Ork nobs should be 2W, I don't have the book, are they 2 wounds?

This (exarch specifically) is classical power creep.

A Chaos Sorcerer, the epitome of chaos magical might, a fallen librarian has 2 wounds.
Likewise the warpsmith, the most powerful character representable in the dark mechanicus has 2 wounds.

And yet the new space marine codex gives chapter masters 4 wounds and the Eldar codex gives exarchs 2 wounds. I imagine that if every codex was released at the same time it wouldn't be a problem, all 'champions' upgrades would have 2W and that would be it.

wtnind wrote:
This (exarch specifically) is classical power creep.

A Chaos Sorcerer, the epitome of chaos magical might, a fallen librarian has 2 wounds.
Likewise the warpsmith, the most powerful character representable in the dark mechanicus has 2 wounds.

And yet the new space marine codex gives chapter masters 4 wounds and the Eldar codex gives exarchs 2 wounds. I imagine that if every codex was released at the same time it wouldn't be a problem, all 'champions' upgrades would have 2W and that would be it.

Oh in my opinion Chaos champs should be 2W they should be more powerful than Vanilla marines because they are powered up by the dark gods. The sorcerer should be 3W's and like wise with the warpsmith, hopefully in the new codex...

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

The Phoenix Lords are always the orginal Eldar who put the suit on, when they die and another Eldar or Exarch puts the suit on they become the original Phoenix Lord and lose their former selves literally, the old Eldar soul is lost to resurrect the Phoenix Lord

With an Exarch they have the spirit stones of all the previous Eldar on the suit and the new guy to put the suit on merges with them to become a kind of multi-souled Eldar? They don't lose their former selves they become part of the conglomerate of souls that makes up the Exarch taking on the name of the first Exarch to wear the suit who would have learned his art from the Phoenix Lord, and yes they can't take of their war mask (Not a literal mask or helmet but a state of mind).

It's how an Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch, he is overwhelmed by his battle lust and an empty suit calls out to him through some sort of psychic shenanigans and puts the suit on, becomes an Exarch and then waits for his first pupils to hear the call of Khaine as it were, enter his shrine and he begins to train them

And all that is why Exarch's have two wounds, Space Marine Sergeants are basically marines who have worked their way up from an intiate to a marine and then if they posses the leadership qualities, become a sergeant if not become a regular veteran. If they were some sort of champion of a god, like Chaos Champions, I could see them having enhanced durability and thus 2W's

 Korlandril wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

The Phoenix Lords are always the orginal Eldar who put the suit on, when they die and another Eldar or Exarch puts the suit on they become the original Phoenix Lord and lose their former selves literally, the old Eldar soul is lost to resurrect the Phoenix Lord

With an Exarch they have the spirit stones of all the previous Eldar on the suit and the new guy to put the suit on merges with them to become a kind of multi-souled Eldar? They don't lose their former selves they become part of the conglomerate of souls that makes up the Exarch taking on the name of the first Exarch to wear the suit who would have learned his art from the Phoenix Lord, and yes they can't take of their war mask (Not a literal mask or helmet but a state of mind).

It's how an Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch, he is overwhelmed by his battle lust and an empty suit calls out to him through some sort of psychic shenanigans and puts the suit on, becomes an Exarch and then waits for his first pupils to hear the call of Khaine as it were, enter his shrine and he begins to train them

And all that is why Exarch's have two wounds, Space Marine Sergeants are basically marines who have worked their way up from an intiate to a marine and then if they posses the leadership qualities, become a sergeant if not become a regular veteran. If they were some sort of champion of a god, like Chaos Champions, I could see them having enhanced durability and thus 2W's

I mean, my Lords aren't a champion of some deity, but they have 2 wounds.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

The Phoenix Lords are always the orginal Eldar who put the suit on, when they die and another Eldar or Exarch puts the suit on they become the original Phoenix Lord and lose their former selves literally, the old Eldar soul is lost to resurrect the Phoenix Lord

With an Exarch they have the spirit stones of all the previous Eldar on the suit and the new guy to put the suit on merges with them to become a kind of multi-souled Eldar? They don't lose their former selves they become part of the conglomerate of souls that makes up the Exarch taking on the name of the first Exarch to wear the suit who would have learned his art from the Phoenix Lord, and yes they can't take of their war mask (Not a literal mask or helmet but a state of mind).

It's how an Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch, he is overwhelmed by his battle lust and an empty suit calls out to him through some sort of psychic shenanigans and puts the suit on, becomes an Exarch and then waits for his first pupils to hear the call of Khaine as it were, enter his shrine and he begins to train them

And all that is why Exarch's have two wounds, Space Marine Sergeants are basically marines who have worked their way up from an intiate to a marine and then if they posses the leadership qualities, become a sergeant if not become a regular veteran. If they were some sort of champion of a god, like Chaos Champions, I could see them having enhanced durability and thus 2W's

I mean, my Lords aren't a champion of some deity, but they have 2 wounds.

Ah but Lords got better bodies when they were converted I believe? , and also they are army leaders so have two justifications for 2W's

I'd argue that veteran sergeants - but not all veterans, and not non-veteran sergeants - should have W2. My reasoning is that 10 points for +1A and +1Ld is mostly a waste of points except on assault marines and assault cents as it stands. Though, maybe make the upgrade from sergeant to vet sergeant 15 points instead of 10 at that point. Same story for Aspiring Champions, who are pretty much the equivalent but in Chaos-land.

After all, a veteran sergeant is next in line for promotion to captain at some point, and captains have W3.

That leaves Dark Eldar Sybarites, Hekatrices, Syrens, Solarites, Dracons, Arena Champs and such, Guard sergeants/vet sergeants and Sisters Superior. I'd say the Guardsmen and Sisters should follow the (proposed) SM model: W1 for sergeants, W2 for vet sergeants/superiors with a cost bump possibly (remembering that T3/W2 is considerably less resilient than T4/W2).

For the DE, drop the base character upgrade to 5 points (their wargear is too bloody expensive as is, and you need it to make the upgrade worth taking), then add a veteran character upgrade for 10 (or maybe 15) points per, that adds W2. Again, the T3/W2 bit is less resilient than T4/W2, even with PFP.

Maybe also some other upgrade, (+1 BS for Sybarite, Dracon, Solarite; +1WS for Hekatrix, Syren, Acothyst, Aberration possibly?) but I'm less certain about that. It's more a question of "DE rebalancing" at that point than "squad leader rebalancing" anyway.

Tau Shas'ui shouldn't have W2 IMHO, nor should Crisis/Broadside Shas'vre get W3. Stealth Shas'vre having W2 is arguable (since a cadre fireblade gets multiple wounds...). The only tweak I'd make there is to reduce the cost a bit (5 points?).

To expand on it:

A Vet Sarge has the same equipment as any Squaddie. His body, too, is not any different (aside from minor selection bias - but the whole supersoldier system, with geneseed, makes variation miniscule). The difference is that the Vet Sarge has been around the block longer, and achieved more success. There is no reason why the same Bolter shot connecting the same way with his body would have any different effect than if it hit a squaddie instead.

This doesn't preclude Termie Armor from giving +1 wound - that'd be a different conversation.

Ork Nobs are different. In small part due to large variation, but more the whole keep-growing thing and Biggis' is best! So Nobs aren't just more experienced Boys. They are bigger and tougher.

Exarchs are very, very different.

An Eldar Aspect warrior is an Eldar, with a particular mindset, who dons a suit of armor and bears a weapon. He carries a soulstone, like all CWE Eldar. But he is distinguishable from the armor. No matter how experienced, or how skilled, he is an Apsect Warrior, not am Exarch.

Becoming an Exarch involves becoming lost on a Path. At first, even lost on the Path, they are still an Eldar. Still an Aspect Warrior, really. This is just the first step.

The second step is the armor. The path from being an Aspect Warrior to being a brand new Exarch, I'm not 100% on, but appears to be incremental. But, for most of those who get lost on the Path, they don an existing Exarch's armor. When they do that, the Aspect Warrior no longer exists. What was him is then absorbed into the Exarch. The Exarch is the armor, which merely needs to have a body put inside it to return to active duty (it needn't even be someone lost on the path). The Exarch is the consiusness that is the amalgamation of countless lost Aspect Warriors. So, on a skill level, its got the combined experience of a Company of Space Marines or so. But skill isn't what we are talking about.

The Exarch armor is to Aspect armor as RoboCop is to a flak jacket. They may have similar purposes, but they aren't in the same league. The Exarch is no longer an Eldar in a similar way, physically speaking, as a Space Marine is no longer a Human.

How different they are from standard Eldar clearly varies. I would surmise an Exarch armor on its first few consciousnesses is probably just as fragile as an Aspect Warrior. But as time passes, more souls are added, and the armor ages, it gets tougher. The fluff suggests Phoenix Lords are "just" really, really old and experienced Exarchs. For instance, when a Phoenix Lord absorbs a new soul, it is consumed just like an Exarch does, except there is so many souls that are already part of the Phoenix Lord psyche, the additional soul has no noticeable effect on the personality.

So Exarchs clearly are not just "Aspect Seargents" fluffwise. They aren't even Eldar anymore. Of course they are more durable than the Aspects they came from. And more skilled.

That's not to say 10pts is acceptible for what they get. I'm arguing fluff, not balance.

There is no fluff reason why Sarges should have two wounds. Fluffwise, Nobs and Exarch should.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Oh, and Autarchs shouldn't have higher stats than Exarchs - aside from LD - but GW gave it to them because they are HQs.)

I suppose that's the same argument for why SM HQs get more wounds than typical marines, though it does make the differences between a Librarian, Captain and Chapter Master harder to justify.

I figure the Wounds stat also represents "plot armor" in a way - in the sense of "this guy is dramatically important, so he's more likely to get lucky and not croak than J. Random". That's why I'd extend the benefit to vet sergeants (but not all vets and not all sergeants), why I'd extend it to Dracons and other DE squad leaders, or at least the ones who've been at it a while and are relevant within their kabals, Guard vet sergeants, veteran Sisters Superior and so forth.

 Korlandril wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

The Phoenix Lords are always the orginal Eldar who put the suit on, when they die and another Eldar or Exarch puts the suit on they become the original Phoenix Lord and lose their former selves literally, the old Eldar soul is lost to resurrect the Phoenix Lord

With an Exarch they have the spirit stones of all the previous Eldar on the suit and the new guy to put the suit on merges with them to become a kind of multi-souled Eldar? They don't lose their former selves they become part of the conglomerate of souls that makes up the Exarch taking on the name of the first Exarch to wear the suit who would have learned his art from the Phoenix Lord, and yes they can't take of their war mask (Not a literal mask or helmet but a state of mind).

It's how an Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch, he is overwhelmed by his battle lust and an empty suit calls out to him through some sort of psychic shenanigans and puts the suit on, becomes an Exarch and then waits for his first pupils to hear the call of Khaine as it were, enter his shrine and he begins to train them

And all that is why Exarch's have two wounds, Space Marine Sergeants are basically marines who have worked their way up from an intiate to a marine and then if they posses the leadership qualities, become a sergeant if not become a regular veteran. If they were some sort of champion of a god, like Chaos Champions, I could see them having enhanced durability and thus 2W's

I mean, my Lords aren't a champion of some deity, but they have 2 wounds.

Ah but Lords got better bodies when they were converted I believe? , and also they are army leaders so have two justifications for 2W's

They have essentially the same bodies as Lychguard. So really the only reason they get two wounds is from the HQ armor they became equipped with.

Bharring wrote:
(Lots of unnecessary words)

You can bend the fluff to suit a lot of things, rules-wise, even when the rules don't make sense. Trying to explain why an Exarch gets two wounds falls in the same category of explaining why a Riptide is a Monstrous Creature - anything you say is basically post hoc fan fiction to explain away something that has no obvious, consistently applied justification.

Meanwhile Space Marine Captains and Chapter Masters, by your exact logic, shouldn't get additional wounds either (because they're not physically much different from a line marine, even if they are much more experienced) and here we are with 3 wound Captains and 4 wound Chapter Masters. They're not like Orks, they're not physically bigger and tougher than a normal marine, certainly not four times as tough.

It's a game mechanic, and I cannot stress this enough. Handing out wounds to characters serves a gameplay function. It keeps your important guys alive longer purely because they're the "main characters" of the story. I see no reason why there shouldn't be more of a continuum between mega plot armor at the top of the food chain and dies to one shot at the bottom.

It's cool to keep your kitted-out Veteran Sergeant alive longer. That's it. That's literally all the reason you need, because it's the only reason for a lot of things in the game.

I think vet sarges, and maybe TDA vets (although that’s more a reflection of terminator armor in the current environment) could use an extra wound.

Every sternguard and vanguard would be too much. Possibly every terminator as well, but they are more in need of help.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Bharring wrote:
(Lots of unnecessary words)

You can bend the fluff to suit a lot of things, rules-wise, even when the rules don't make sense. Trying to explain why an Exarch gets two wounds falls in the same category of explaining why a Riptide is a Monstrous Creature - anything you say is basically post hoc fan fiction to explain away something that has no obvious, consistently applied justification.

Meanwhile Space Marine Captains and Chapter Masters, by your exact logic, shouldn't get additional wounds either (because they're not physically much different from a line marine, even if they are much more experienced) and here we are with 3 wound Captains and 4 wound Chapter Masters. They're not like Orks, they're not physically bigger and tougher than a normal marine, certainly not four times as tough.

It's a game mechanic, and I cannot stress this enough. Handing out wounds to characters serves a gameplay function. It keeps your important guys alive longer purely because they're the "main characters" of the story. I see no reason why there shouldn't be more of a continuum between mega plot armor at the top of the food chain and dies to one shot at the bottom.

It's cool to keep your kitted-out Veteran Sergeant alive longer. That's it. That's literally all the reason you need, because it's the only reason for a lot of things in the game.

First paragraph - it's not bending the fluff to justify a 2W Exarch, the fluff directly supports this.

Second paragraph - HQ's getting extra wounds is a common, consistent game mechanic across all armies. Also toughness dictates literal toughness, wounds represent how many hits they can take before being dead or out of the battle. You are confusing the two

Third paragraph - First bit is stating the obvious, we are talking about game rules in a game. You basically said the sky is blue and the grass is green. The reason sergeants don't have 2W's is consistency across all armies, all other armies squad leaders have fluff justification for extra wounds. There is no fluff justification for an extra wound on sergeants or veteran sergeants

Making the fluff fit the rules is what you get when the rules come before the fluff. Such as a lot of the Riptide being an MC arguments.

When the fluff exists for forever *before* the rule changes, its not a case of the making the fluff fit the rules.

What I wrote is extraneous only if you don't care about the fluff.

What I wrote, aside from a few, clearly qualified, statements is not Fan Fiction, but rather GW fiction that predates the Exarch change (from before the 7e codex).

When I refer to fluff that GW put out before they changed the rule, it is not fan fiction, it is not post hoc, and it certainly isn't bending the fluff to fit the rules.

HQs typically get Plot Armor wounds. There is something to say, Captains being more survivable, because they actually do have different gear frequently, but it doesn't explain the CM/Captain difference in wounds. Its plot armor. I understand why GW gave an Autarch 3 wounds, but that hasn't stopped me from saying they shouldn't have that.

The 'Its a gameplay mechanic' does reduce the impact of the fluff, sure. But should Vet Sarges have more Plot Armor than Nobs or Exarchs? HQ plot armor feels great to me - those guys shrugging off a boltgun wound and still fighting makes it more cinematic. But it costs (attention, simplicity, reasonability), so I'd rather Plot Armor wounds remain restricted to things like HQs.

Its cool to keep your favorite models alive longer. Whether its a Sarge or plasma gunner or DA Exarch. But they don't exist in a vacuum. For instance, if they go up against their Wych equivalent, they now curbstomp. The units that rely on winning those fights quickly now fail to do so, and typically can't handle the rebuttle. So now your opponent's favorite model dies faster. Does less.

You could then balance these out - say, give them more attacks, but now they mulch infantry better. So then you have to up their costs, or make infantry better against them. But then you also have to do the same for the SM vet sarge.

From a gameplay perspective, adding the HP to vet Sarges hurts more than it helps. More HP to watch. Need to rebalance or you screw over other units. HQs are less spectacular.

So, no, I don't agree with it even if we throw out the fluff to to it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

Lords and Crypteks have superior bodies to the rest of the necron non royalty legions. They have in lore reasons why the upper echelon of the necron dynastys are tougher then the already tough necron dross. As mentioned before, a vet Sergent is just like any other marine.

Bharring wrote:
Making the fluff fit the rules is what you get when the rules come before the fluff. Such as a lot of the Riptide being an MC arguments.

When the fluff exists for forever *before* the rule changes, its not a case of the making the fluff fit the rules.

What I wrote is extraneous only if you don't care about the fluff.

What I wrote, aside from a few, clearly qualified, statements is not Fan Fiction, but rather GW fiction that predates the Exarch change (from before the 7e codex).

When I refer to fluff that GW put out before they changed the rule, it is not fan fiction, it is not post hoc, and it certainly isn't bending the fluff to fit the rules.

HQs typically get Plot Armor wounds. There is something to say, Captains being more survivable, because they actually do have different gear frequently, but it doesn't explain the CM/Captain difference in wounds. Its plot armor. I understand why GW gave an Autarch 3 wounds, but that hasn't stopped me from saying they shouldn't have that.

The 'Its a gameplay mechanic' does reduce the impact of the fluff, sure. But should Vet Sarges have more Plot Armor than Nobs or Exarchs? HQ plot armor feels great to me - those guys shrugging off a boltgun wound and still fighting makes it more cinematic. But it costs (attention, simplicity, reasonability), so I'd rather Plot Armor wounds remain restricted to things like HQs.

Its cool to keep your favorite models alive longer. Whether its a Sarge or plasma gunner or DA Exarch. But they don't exist in a vacuum. For instance, if they go up against their Wych equivalent, they now curbstomp. The units that rely on winning those fights quickly now fail to do so, and typically can't handle the rebuttle. So now your opponent's favorite model dies faster. Does less.

You could then balance these out - say, give them more attacks, but now they mulch infantry better. So then you have to up their costs, or make infantry better against them. But then you also have to do the same for the SM vet sarge.

From a gameplay perspective, adding the HP to vet Sarges hurts more than it helps. More HP to watch. Need to rebalance or you screw over other units. HQs are less spectacular.

So, no, I don't agree with it even if we throw out the fluff to to it.

I didn't mean fan fiction as in you literally made it up. I meant fan fiction as in you've taken fluff and contorted it to fit a rules change. The extra souls floating around in an Exarch's armor never imbued the Exarch with additional ability to take damage before, but suddenly they do because you latched onto this as a way to explain the second wound. The second wound wasn't added to represent something about the Exarch in the fluff, it was added for gameplay purposes. You're making a post hoc rationalization based on a fan theory interpretation of the fluff. There's no fluff to throw out about this second wound - it's an existing, unrelated detail you've re-appropriated. I do care about the fluff, which is why I generally disagree with bending it to the breaking point to explain bad rules.

I don't necessarily think we should add wounds to veteran sergeants either (I think it could be cool, I think they might need to cost more) but at least we can agree that these things are done as plot armor and not to reflect physical toughness or some other fluff characteristic.

Korlandril wrote:First paragraph - it's not bending the fluff to justify a 2W Exarch, the fluff directly supports this.

You might need to look up the word "directly". The fluff directly supports Exarchs having badass armor that intermingles their souls with previous occupants. It doesn't directly say anything about those souls making them tougher or animating the suit after the occupant has died.

Korlandril wrote:Second paragraph - HQ's getting extra wounds is a common, consistent game mechanic across all armies. Also toughness dictates literal toughness, wounds represent how many hits they can take before being dead or out of the battle. You are confusing the two

Yes, it's a game mechanic, this is my point. And I'm not confusing anything, you're just taking the word "tough" to mean the game stat "Toughness". When I say a Captain isn't physically tougher, I mean it in the way that someone who can get shot three times with a weapon that kills a normal person in one is tough (or lucky). Since they aren't actually tougher, they must be luckier. Extra wounds for leaders is down to luck/plot armor.

Korlandril wrote:Third paragraph - First bit is stating the obvious, we are talking about game rules in a game. You basically said the sky is blue and the grass is green. The reason sergeants don't have 2W's is consistency across all armies, all other armies squad leaders have fluff justification for extra wounds. There is no fluff justification for an extra wound on sergeants or veteran sergeants

And now we're back to the original point. It's a game mechanic that's consistent across armies, except Eldar. The fluff doesn't directly support Exarchs having additional wounds, unless something was changed in the most recent Eldar codex to directly state this (I'd like to see that quoted if it's the case). So we can contort old fluff to fit new rules, or we can admit that the extra wounds are purely there to make your Exarchs more badass in the same way that Captains and Farseers get more wounds to be badass, and we can rationally extend that to other sergeant upgrades.


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And anyway, this whole Exarch fluff argument is beside the point. Everything boils down to this: the assignment of extra wounds to some (most) characters in the game is arbitrary and unrelated to fluff. Major independent characters get 3 or 4 and minor characters get 2 simply because we want to see them last longer and do more in game. Extending that or not extending that to veteran sergeants is also an arbitrary decision and doesn't have anything to do with fluff, it has to do with gameplay. So that's probably what this discussion should be about - would it be good for gameplay? Do people think it's cool? Does it cheapen other characters if humble veteran sergeants also have two wounds?

Well, taken to the extreme, they make the wearer 2+ T4 W3 EW. Also, Exarch had a 3+ even when their aspect had a 4+ in the last book. So the process making them durable is hardly new.

I'm fairly sure you can't call the argument post hoc, when the argument was made (by me, at least) *before* the rule change.

Unless you have design studio notes, how can you definitively said that the rule change was made for gameplay reasons and not for fluff reasons? Especially when there is more compelling fluff reasons than gameplay reasons?

I think we both very much care for the fluff. But I think we aren't familiar with the same parts. I wouldn't mind if the 2nd wound would get stripped (but I'd still really like to be able to take Exarch beatsticks, even if they weren't ICs). I just think that there is some defense to it.


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On the Plot Armor point - I have come to enjoy it. But spreading around he +1W would require a lot of rebalancing to get right. And then we get into HeroHammer. And need to keep track of each Sarge's HP. And it detracts from HQs.

I don't think its worth it.

Harlequin Troupe Leaders could certainly go down to 1. And I wouldn't complain too much if Exarchs did too.

But too much plot armor on too many models gets dumb. When every 5th guy is super special, nobody feels special.

Lance845 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Eldar Exarchs make sense from the lore. They aren't just sergeants, their suits of armour contain the souls of all the previous eldar to wear the suit.

Uhh, I'm no fluff guru for Eldar, but I thought that was the Phoenix Lords, not the Exarchs? I thought Exarchs were just the guys who couldn't take off their "war mask" thing and thus were too unstable to be around regular Eldar. So they're borderline "exiled", and are constantly fighting, thus that explains the statline.


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But more on topic, my Lords and Crypteks got 2 wounds, and they essentially act as my sergeants, so I think they should get 2 wounds too.

Lords and Crypteks have superior bodies to the rest of the necron non royalty legions. They have in lore reasons why the upper echelon of the necron dynastys are tougher then the already tough necron dross. As mentioned before, a vet Sergent is just like any other marine.

Well, as I believe I stated, Lychguard are made of the same type of bodies, as well as Praetorians. But they don't have multiple wounds.

Not that pointing that out matters. But how about this. Sergeants/squad leaders should just have +1WS/BS? That represents them being slightly better than the rest. Would that work then?