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I had a game finally using my painted harlequins that I toiled for hours painting all those tiny diamonds and details on against battle company marines with lots of grav.

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

Wow. Weakest army in the game? Are Harlequins supposed to be terrible against space marines?

ye i read a lot of bad things about them. just play for fun mate

POST PICS OF ARMY!

DorianGray wrote:
I had a game finally using my painted harlequins that I toiled for hours painting all those tiny diamonds and details on against battle company marines with lots of grav.

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

Wow. Weakest army in the game? Are Harlequins supposed to be terrible against space marines?

Yeah. um, their not S3 on the charge; they have furious charge to give them S4. Also, aren't they WS5? I'm pretty sure they hit on 3s against most marines, or atleast the troupe leader does.

Once you get the harleys into combat, they're one of the best armys in the game. Harleys fall short in anti air and potentially anti tank. They mulch most infantry armies and can cap everything with their jetbikes.

DorianGray wrote:
I had a game finally using my painted harlequins that I toiled for hours painting all those tiny diamonds and details on against battle company marines with lots of grav.

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

Wow. Weakest army in the game? Are Harlequins supposed to be terrible against space marines?

Harlequins are very much like Dark Eldar. They're usually very good at killing numerically limited, very tough things, and very poor at dealing with quantity, particularly lots of vehicles.

Harlies are S4 on a charge, and if kitted with Kisses and Embraces and whatnot (which they *should* be), between their high WS and Init, S4 on the charge, and an average number of 6's to wound, a unit of 5 should be killing ~4 Marines off a charge.


The bigger problem is that they're really not supposed to be an entire army on their own, they really are truly a supplement army. On their own, they just lack too many capabilities. They'd be great for some interesting scenario/narrative play, but as a single army, using rulebook missions, without any allies, they're just not a functional whole, they have too many capability gaps.

I can see them doing well in lower point games, like 500-750 games or combat patrol and killteam, but anything larger and you'll pretty much need to bring in something from at least Dark Eldar to compensate.

They are a tough army to play as a mono list but as Allies they are deadly. That said on the charge they are a blender, they are quick hit at S4 and have a lot of nasty weapons.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Harlequins are very much like Dark Eldar. They're usually very good at killing numerically limited, very tough things, and very poor at dealing with quantity

my unit of 5 with 20-30 attacks on the charge disagrees!

Harlequins can be quite strong when used right. They're definitely not a beginner army.

DorianGray wrote:
I had a game finally using my painted harlequins that I toiled for hours painting all those tiny diamonds and details on against battle company marines with lots of grav.

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

Wow. Weakest army in the game? Are Harlequins supposed to be terrible against space marines?

Sounds like somebody wasn't actually taking the time to read through the entire Unit entry...

DorianGray wrote:
I had a game finally using my painted harlequins that I toiled for hours painting all those tiny diamonds and details on against battle company marines with lots of grav.

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

Wow. Weakest army in the game? Are Harlequins supposed to be terrible against space marines?

You may of spent a lot of time painting but learning how to play them is yet another project. Harlequins are Ws 5, so they hit the vast majority of MEQ's on 3's. Harlequins have furious charge, so are Str 4. Harlequins have Hit'n'Run, so if they are still in combat on your opponents turn Jump outta the combat then charge back in. Give the Troupe Master a power sword for assured MEQ kills. Have Shadowseers screen your units on the way in with your amazing psychic disciplin. Use your ability of a second turn charge to make your opponent underestimate your threat range (17''!). Take advantage of the fact you ignore terrain.

Harlequins are far from the weakest army in the game, although I would make a case for them being the most nuanced .

I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

As allies they're pretty bad too as you can't get the good bits without taking large amounts of tax.

most nuanced? How so?

DorianGray wrote:

Harlequin transports (starweavers) are 10 all around and get wrecked with the same hull points as Venoms.

I don't understand what your point is here. A Starweaver costs just 5pts more than a Venom, and for that you get:
- A once per game 4++ save (meaning you have a defence against Ignores Cover weapons and/or can avoid Jinking once per game)
- Shuriken Cannons instead of Splinter Cannons (arguably much better weapons, since they can hurt vehicles and their shorter range is offset by the passengers wanting to close with an opponent anyway)
- +1 Transport capacity (Trust me when I say that DE players would love the option to have a character and a 5-man squad in a Venom ).

Unless I'm missing something, Harlequins don't seem to be getting a bad deal here. Not compared to a Venom, at least.

DorianGray wrote:

The worst thing is the main harlequin troops hit MEQs like a sock even with the charge. They wound only on 5s because of their S3 and they only get 4 hits with 4s to hit. Despite having Kisses on all my models. My 6 harlequins on the charge assaulted a regular tactical squad and killed nobody.

As others have said, you seem to have missed or forgotten several of their special rules. And, Harlequins *need* their many special rules to be effective. You also appear to have missed that they're WS5 (hence should have been hitting those marines on 3s).

Frankly, I'd normally expect reaching combat to be far more problematic than causing damage once there.

ryuken87 wrote:
I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

They're not amazing, but I'd hesitate to call them the worst army in the game - especially when Militarum Tempestus exist.

ryuken87 wrote:
As allies they're pretty bad too as you can't get the good bits without taking large amounts of tax.

This, however, I can agree with entirely. Their formations read like a bunch of random crap jammed together for no reason, and their Masque detachment has a preposterous number of mandatory units.

I assume the intention is to force players to buy as much crap as possible, but for me it has the opposite effect because it puts me off even starting the army. Stay the course, GW.

 vipoid wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

They're not amazing, but I'd hesitate to call them the worst army in the game - especially when Militarum Tempestus exist.

I had completely forgotten they were an army, I don't think I've ever seen them played. Ok second worst.

If by Battle Company you mean the Gladius Strike Force, that is one of the most powerful armies in the game, a tournament level list almost by default. Harlequins by themselves, are not.

Sounds like your lists were unbalanced and you were in for an uphill battle from the start.

.....tbh it sounds like you didn't even read your unit entry.

1) they hit on 3s bro. See: the weapon skill table.

2) They wound on 4s. See army wide furious charge.

3) Unlwss you horribly misinterpreted the rules or are juF complaining with exaggeration, it is almost impossible to charge a TAC squad with 6 kisses and not cause wounds. The average unsaved wounds you should get is six, before they even get to swing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.....tbh it sounds like you didn't even read your unit entry.

1) they hit on 3s bro. See: the weapon skill table.

2) They wound on 4s. See army wide furious charge.

3) Unlwss you horribly misinterpreted the rules or are juF complaining with exaggeration, it is almost impossible to charge a TAC squad with 6 kisses and not cause wounds. The average unsaved wounds you should get is six, before they even get to swing.

2nd worst in number of options? Yes. But not in power. Mono-Harlie lists can be quite deadly if used right. Shadowseers are a must and you need to be ok with losing some groups to get others in. Also Harlies supplemented by DE are nasty.

Space marines are indeed not a great matchup, though, particularly Gladius. Harlequins have a few things going in their favor (the ability to smash things like dreads and land raiders with haywire and caresses, plenty of ap2/3, immunity to grav, relatively don't give a flip about melta) but they fare poorly against 3++ save units and rhinos. So it really depends on the makeup of the marines. I fared really well vs Centstar builds but I get crushed by Gladius razorback spam every time.

Did somebody honestly say Tempestus was a worse army? I can't comprehend such incorrect thoughts.

At least they're usable by themselves for an army. Harlequins are not when close. They're of the nature of a real supplement.

The formation restrictions for Harlequins really make it difficult to use them effectively as allies. It seems GW's concern was allowing Harlequin characters from enhancing other units too much, which is strange because they sure didn't care about that with the Eldar codex!

In addition to the points others have made, OP, it sounds like you may not have been using any of their special weapons. Pistols are pricey enough to be of questionable value (though I've had good luck taking them on troupe masters lately), but haywire grenades for characters are a must. Additionally, the melee weapons are all pretty fantastic. Some quick thoughts:

Kisses: My personal favorite. Give everyone in the squad one (except maybe the troupe master), and you have a decent number of attacks that will annihilate most infantry. They also shine against MCs as they're reasonably likely to put on some normal wounds a to-wound of 6 means that MCis just gone.

Caresses: Very nice, but the added cost compared to the kisses can add up fast. I prefer the reliability of the kisses, but these things are much nastier if you're good at rolling 6's to hit. When I take these, I usually take them on the troupe master because of the higher number of attacks.

Embraces : Really neat, but weirdly difficult to use. You have to get them in btb on the charge to benefit from them, and that can be tougher than you'd think if you've been trying to skirt the enemy's range to stay safe. They're fun to use against vehicles, but they seem like they excel when you take a bunch of them and use them against hordes. Pretty sure these are meant to be harlies' answer to hordes, but that's still going to be a tough matchup most of the time.

Power Sword: Better on a troupe master than you might think. Still too pricey for what it does, but at least you're hitting on 3's most of the time and wounding most enemies on a 4 or less.

Storied Sword: Much better than a power sword and well worth the cost. A troupe master with a power sword or storied sword is basically there to challenge out enemy characters with special melee weapons and shut them down before they can retaliate against the squad.

I do find it tough to make harlies work by themselves for the reasons mentioned above. The biggest problem I have with them is delivering them into combat with their low model count and relative squishyness. Shadowseers help with this a lot, but they can't cast their defensive powers while embarked on a transport. Plus, failing to cast veil of tears or dance of shadows when you need it is a big deal, and psychic-heavy enemies add to that problem. On the other hand, they don't have ghost helms or spell familiars or anything, so trying too hard to get a spell off makes it pretty likely that you perils, so...

That said, harlequins are always a lot of fun to play with! Phantasmancy gives you some really neat tools to deal with the enemy, but you have to be careful and clever with how you use it. Running and assaulting out of an open-topped transport always feels awesome, and haywire launchers are fun to toss around. If you can team them up with allies, do so, but they're the perfect army for when you want to play a fun, different sort of game on hard mode. And I mean that in a good way.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

At least they're usable by themselves for an army. Harlequins are not when close. They're of the nature of a real supplement.

That was the attitude of our local sm dude i often play against. The interesting thing is that my orklequins beat him quite firmly in 3 turns, yet he still thinks they are weak That's the same dude who's also certain that my mutilator list is weak. We'll see this sunday. I guess, orklequins come next once again.

It is probably the Orks putting in the majority of the work.

Also, the Mutilators list IS weak. You aren't going to see it at a tournament for a reason.

ryuken87 wrote:
I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

As allies they're pretty bad too as you can't get the good bits without taking large amounts of tax.

Jeeze...just stop.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

As allies they're pretty bad too as you can't get the good bits without taking large amounts of tax.

Jeeze...just stop.

Why? It isn't entirely incorrect.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
I agree that they are the worst army in the game. Stand alone they are very bad, having so few options most of which are overpriced.

As allies they're pretty bad too as you can't get the good bits without taking large amounts of tax.

Jeeze...just stop.

What? Some armies are better than others and somethings gotta be down there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is probably the Orks putting in the majority of the work.

Also, the Mutilators list IS weak. You aren't going to see it at a tournament for a reason.

Orklequins are ork models with harlequin rules. You know, boyz are troupes, nobz are troupe masters, lootas are death jesters, etc.

Different tournaments - different rules. Whenever there are killpoint missions, this list has no chance indeed. Eternal war missions suck anywayz and i'm happy we don't play them anymore. Maelstorm just opens so many possibilities. And even mutilators work good enough in maelstorm. Also, many tournaments use comps that limit weaker armies like csm a lot. The mutilator list needs 3-4 detachments to work.

So, tournament hammer is completely different to a normal game from the start.

Let's not drag the mutilator conversation into this thread.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is probably the Orks putting in the majority of the work.

Also, the Mutilators list IS weak. You aren't going to see it at a tournament for a reason.

Orklequins are ork models with harlequin rules. You know, boyz are troupes, nobz are troupe masters, lootas are death jesters, etc.

Different tournaments - different rules. Whenever there are killpoint missions, this list has no chance indeed. Eternal war missions suck anywayz and i'm happy we don't play them anymore. Maelstorm just opens so many possibilities. And even mutilators work good enough in maelstorm. Also, many tournaments use comps that limit weaker armies like csm a lot. The mutilator list needs 3-4 detachments to work.

So, tournament hammer is completely different to a normal game from the start.

I'm not gonna lie when I say I like Harlequin models and I am morbidly curious about your models now that you explained what Orkwinz actually is.

However, if this statement you made had a semblance of truth, they'd still make a good showing at tournaments using Maelstrom. They don't for a reason.

They're cool as a supplement, but they just don't work as a stand alone army. Still better off than CSM as a whole though!

EDIT: Autocorrect doesn't like me.