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2016/01/23 04:07:29
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
well it's good to know canada hasn't lost it's mind yet, and common sense still prevails. I'm posting this as a follow up to a previous thread it was brought up in, I just didn't want to search for the original I tried to find a short synapses of events, but my google skills are week tonight.
TORONTO - A controversial acquittal in what's believed to be Canada's first criminal harassment trial involving Twitter is being hailed by some as a victory for freedom of speech and condemned by others as a green light for online attacks.
Murmurs rippled through a packed Toronto courtroom Friday as Gregory Alan Elliott was cleared on all charges stemming from his dealings with two local women's rights activists, Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly, on the popular social network.
The decision, which focused heavily on the nature of Twitter and freedom of expression, also made waves online, with supporters and opponents weighing in on the verdict's significance.
"It's not surprising that it's controversial and also not surprising that people are taking extreme views," said Cara Zwibel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
"It's a significant decision because the judge spent some time grappling with freedom of expression and thinking through how people communicate on Twitter and what the implications of it are or could be, but it's also very context- and fact-specific and looking specifically at the evidence in this case," she said.
"So in that sense I think it has somewhat limited value as a precedent because it's always going to depend on the specific facts and context that we're talking about."
Elliott, a graphic designer and father of four, was arrested in November 2012 after months of tweeting back and forth with the activists.
The pair testified at the trial that they believe Elliot kept tabs on them and their whereabouts through social media, even after they blocked his account.
He continued to contact them, they said, in part through the use of hashtags he knew them to be involved with.
While there is "no doubt" that Guthrie and Reilly were harassed by Elliott, either due to the volume or content of his messages, that alone does not meet the legal threshold for a conviction, Ontario Court Judge Brent Knazan said.
In order to convict, the Crown must prove the accused knowingly or recklessly harassed another person through conduct that caused them to reasonably fear for their safety.
Elliott's tweets contained nothing of a "violent or sexual nature," and there was no indication he intended to hurt the women so their fear could not be justified, Knazan said.
In the posts, Elliott was largely explaining himself and furthering his views "however offensive or wrong they may be," the judge said, while recognizing the language could be "vulgar and sometimes obscene."
Guthrie and Reilly were unreasonable in expecting Elliott to keep out of Twitter conversations they were involved in simply because they asked him to, nor could the use of hashtags be considered an attempt to contact them directly, he said.
"Once someone creates a hashtag, anyone can use it," he said. "Everyone has to be able to use it freely; anything less will limit the operation of Twitter in a way that is not consistent with freedom of expression."
Elliott's lawyer, Chris Murphy, said outside court that the ruling should be reassuring to all social media users.
"If you're defending yourself and speaking politically, you don't have to worry about someone's fear being reasonable," he said.
Elliott said he felt vindicated that he had done nothing wrong.
"I'm not guilty and everything I did, I thought was within the law, so I don't know if I would change anything," he said.
"Freedom of speech is about expressing your opinions, your emotions, and if it's taken out of context or misunderstood or misconstrued by others, you shouldn't have that forced upon you."
Shortly afterward, he tweeted for the first time since his arrest: "You can stand for something, but you can't misunderstand for something." - Gregory Alan Elliott #freedomoftweets #thankyou #3years2months"
Many were quick to express their support.
"Congratulations @greg_a_elliott on your historic victory for free speech. And welcome back to the internet! #FreedomOfTweets," one wrote.
"Welcome back, mate, and congrats. Free speech prevails," another tweeted.
Others denounced the verdict, like the Twitter user who called it "A victory for creeps, misogynists & trolls of all kinds."
2016/01/23 04:12:06
Subject: Re:score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/23 04:38:20
Subject: Re:score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
Peregrine wrote: Even the worst TFGs have a right to free speech.
I am going to borrow that quote.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
2016/01/23 08:21:57
Subject: Re:score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
The pair testified at the trial that they believe Elliot kept tabs on them and their whereabouts through social media, even after they blocked his account.
How does one regulate Facebook stalking?
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/23 08:27:34
Subject: Re:score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
The pair testified at the trial that they believe Elliot kept tabs on them and their whereabouts through social media, even after they blocked his account.
How does one regulate Facebook stalking?
I don't know, but everytime there's a thread I have an opinion on, I find you posting in it! What do you have against me Dogma?!
It seems this situation is at least somewhat more nuanced than the typical twitter troll situation. Like, there was an element of additional subtlety there that isn't traditionally found.
It is kind of sad though, this is going to end up discouraging a lot of people who are being harassed on twitter from reporting their experiences to the police where these various nuances aren't present.
I'm guessing there might be another difference between various laws? As far as I know, in the UK, there's no requirement for 'harassment' to be violent or sexual in nature.
If in the UK and experience such a thing, this link should help: https://www.getsafeonline.org/protecting-yourself/cyberstalking/ Truth be told, it's a pretty good website in general if you find yourself feeling like you lack knowledge of anything relating to safety on computers, though naturally legal stuff would only apply to the UK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/23 13:01:48
2016/01/23 17:55:24
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
“Blaming the majority of normal men for rape…is wrong,” Mr. Elliott, a 53-year-old Toronto man, wrote back in September of 2012. “Rapists are not normal men; they’re crazy. Why not blame the mentally ill?”
he pissed off the SJW's and they went out to destroy his life and did a good job at it. A SJW who had ties to the police force & politicians which is why it was allowed to proceed as far as it did.
2016/01/23 19:38:31
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
I heard about this. It sounds like he's a bit of an donkey-cave, but the response he got was completely unwarranted. There was also (apparently, I'm not 100% sure about the accuracy of thing) doxxing and various attacks against him, including possibly getting him fired.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/01/23 21:20:11
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
Co'tor Shas wrote: I heard about this. It sounds like he's a bit of an donkey-cave, but the response he got was completely unwarranted. There was also (apparently, I'm not 100% sure about the accuracy of thing) doxxing and various attacks against him, including possibly getting him fired.
They basically lied to cops who came to see them, about something they got their twitter followers up to: getting the guy labeled a pedophile. It's insane:
Q. You were trying to ruin Bendilin Spurr’s life, correct?
A. I was trying to let as many people as possible know that this was something Bendilin Spurr had done. And if they believed it was wrong, and if they believed it was disgusting, and if they took action that subsequently ruined Bendilin Spurr’s life, then he was the one who ruined it and not me, Mr. Murphy.
Q. Right. So ...
A. I was a messenger.
Q. So you were the messenger. So a 24 year-old kid in Sault Saint Marie makes a face punch game for whatever reason he has to make it?
A. Are you suggesting there’s a valid reason?
Q. If a kid makes a face punch game, and his life is ruined, and you’re just the messenger, that’s a-okay with Stephanie Guthrie?
A. Well, 24 years old is not a kid. Certainly old enough to appreciate the severity of your actions. And I would not feel sorry about that. If that happened, that would be his actions that got him where he was. His choices.
Q. So you being the messenger of a message that ruins Bendilin Spurr’s life is okay with you, yes or no? A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
---------------------
Q. My question, Ms. Guthrie, was that when Mr. Elliott makes what may appear to some people valid social criticism, you took his criticism each and every time to be a crock, during the relative period of, agree?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Right. Nothing Mr. Elliott said had any value to you, agree?
A. Mr. Elliott’s political views are ones that I feel are spurious.
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Because primarily it doesn’t correspond at all with what you believe?
A. Or with reality.
Q. With reality, right. Exactly. From your perspective, Mr. Elliott wasn’t operating in reality because he didn’t adopt (a), the public shaming of Bendilin Spurr, right?
A. Sorry, what are you ... what are you asking exactly?
Q. Mr. Elliott’s opposition to your public shaming of Bendilin Spurr was devoid of any sort of meaningful social content?
A. I felt that it was invalid, yeah.
--------------------
Consistent with the above passage, Ms. Guthrie’s refrain throughout her testimony was that she was just the deliverer of messages. She was just a messenger when she sicced the Internet on Mr. Spurr. And she was just the messenger when, in November 2012, she provided the OIC of Mr. Elliott’s investigation a tweet that suggested that Mr. Elliott was a pedophile: Q. Right. And just to be clear, the date November 12th which is on this exhibit [#40] is the date that you took that screen grab, right?
A. I couldn’t possibly say.
Q. Okay. But you understood that on or about November 12th, Mr. Elliott was being accused on Twitter of being a pedophile, right? A. Sure.
Q. Right. And again, you didn’t feel it was your job to tell Detective Bangild that it was, actually, an adult?
A. The young woman said that she was 13, so that was what people believed. She later said that she was not 13.
Q. Right.
A. But initially she said that she was.
Q. But by the time you met Detective Bangild, you already testified to this, you were aware that she was either 18 or 19, agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Good. So not really trying to help out Mr. Elliott when you’re not mentioning the fact it’s actually an adult, right?
A. My position wasn’t really that I wanted ... I was not trying to help Mr. Elliott.
Q. Right.
A. He was stalking me. So no, I wasn’t trying to help me. I wasn’t trying to harm him unduly, but I was not trying to help him and I was not trying to ... yeah.
Q. Right. In your view handing tweets alleging Mr. Elliott’s a pedophile without correcting the officers receiving them, is not trying to harm Mr. Elliott, right?
A. Wasn’t trying to harm him, no.47
I'm pulling this particular bit out, because holy crap this lady belongs behind bars for impeding an investigation:
Consistent with the above passage, Ms. Guthrie’s refrain throughout her testimony was that she was just the deliverer of messages. She was just a messenger when she sicced the Internet on Mr. Spurr. And she was just the messenger when, in November 2012, she provided the OIC of Mr. Elliott’s investigation a tweet that suggested that Mr. Elliott was a pedophile: Q. Right. And just to be clear, the date November 12th which is on this exhibit [#40] is the date that you took that screen grab, right?
A. I couldn’t possibly say.
Q. Okay. But you understood that on or about November 12th, Mr. Elliott was being accused on Twitter of being a pedophile, right? A. Sure.
Q. Right. And again, you didn’t feel it was your job to tell Detective Bangild that it was, actually, an adult?
A. The young woman said that she was 13, so that was what people believed. She later said that she was not 13.
Q. Right.
A. But initially she said that she was.
Q. But by the time you met Detective Bangild, you already testified to this, you were aware that she was either 18 or 19, agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Good. So not really trying to help out Mr. Elliott when you’re not mentioning the fact it’s actually an adult, right?
A. My position wasn’t really that I wanted ... I was not trying to help Mr. Elliott.
Q. Right.
A. He was stalking me. So no, I wasn’t trying to help me. I wasn’t trying to harm him unduly, but I was not trying to help him and I was not trying to ... yeah.
Q. Right. In your view handing tweets alleging Mr. Elliott’s a pedophile without correcting the officers receiving them, is not trying to harm Mr. Elliott, right?
A. Wasn’t trying to harm him, no.47
"Well, I didn't want to help him. So even though I KNEW he wasn't a pedophile, I didn't bother to correct the cops and in fact gave them tweets that said he was."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/23 21:21:19
2016/01/23 21:20:51
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
“Blaming the majority of normal men for rape…is wrong,” Mr. Elliott, a 53-year-old Toronto man, wrote back in September of 2012. “Rapists are not normal men; they’re crazy. Why not blame the mentally ill?”
he pissed off the SJW's and they went out to destroy his life and did a good job at it. A SJW who had ties to the police force & politicians which is why it was allowed to proceed as far as it did.
Nice job ignoring the part where it was way more than a single tweet in disagreement with someone. He continued to bother them after they asked him to stop and tried to block him. The court found that he had been harassing them, but that his actions weren't technically a crime because there was no violent or sexual content:
While there is "no doubt" that Guthrie and Reilly were harassed by Elliott, either due to the volume or content of his messages, that alone does not meet the legal threshold for a conviction, Ontario Court Judge Brent Knazan said.
In short: it's a ruling that he didn't commit a crime, not a ruling that he's a good person.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/23 21:20:58
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/24 01:42:19
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
“Blaming the majority of normal men for rape…is wrong,” Mr. Elliott, a 53-year-old Toronto man, wrote back in September of 2012. “Rapists are not normal men; they’re crazy. Why not blame the mentally ill?”
he pissed off the SJW's and they went out to destroy his life and did a good job at it. A SJW who had ties to the police force & politicians which is why it was allowed to proceed as far as it did.
Nice job ignoring the part where it was way more than a single tweet in disagreement with someone. He continued to bother them after they asked him to stop and tried to block him. The court found that he had been harassing them, but that his actions weren't technically a crime because there was no violent or sexual content:
While there is "no doubt" that Guthrie and Reilly were harassed by Elliott, either due to the volume or content of his messages, that alone does not meet the legal threshold for a conviction, Ontario Court Judge Brent Knazan said.
In short: it's a ruling that he didn't commit a crime, not a ruling that he's a good person.
his tweets were benign, worse things get posted in OT.
there's no reason to assume he's not a good person. He is a good person, standing up to those who sought to destroy someones life, is a good deed.
2016/01/24 02:33:21
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
sirlynchmob wrote: his tweets were benign, worse things get posted in OT.
there's no reason to assume he's not a good person. He is a good person, standing up to those who sought to destroy someones life, is a good deed.
If the judge at your trial openly says "you did a bad thing, but it wasn't technically illegal" it's a pretty strong hint that you're not the hero of the story.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/24 03:15:57
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
I'm curious, given the other uses of full quotes, why they article does not use full quotes for the judge. Using only snippets of sentences seems like the worst kind of quote mining.
I think we should keep that in mind when attributing intent or meaning to the judge.
So, this pretty clearly supports the idea that Elliot is a terrible person and the judge felt that his behavior was inappropriate, but not technically illegal.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/24 08:02:23
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
He does sound like a guy with a lack of boundaries and a strong sense of entitlement to women, and stalking someone on social media is pretty threatening behaviour, especially if they've met in meatspace before. I mean, continually monitoring the timeline of someone who's blocked you and replying to it is well past creeper-level.
2016/01/24 11:26:50
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
“Blaming the majority of normal men for rape…is wrong,” Mr. Elliott, a 53-year-old Toronto man, wrote back in September of 2012. “Rapists are not normal men; they’re crazy. Why not blame the mentally ill?”
Damn, the amount of stupid in this tweet. IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!
[edit]If stupidity was a crime, that guy would be jailed for YEARS!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/24 11:27:31
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/01/24 13:31:56
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
So, this pretty clearly supports the idea that Elliot is a terrible person and the judge felt that his behavior was inappropriate, but not technically illegal.
he's no more terrible than gunthrie is, and she is a horrible person setting out to ruin the lives of two people.
One of the most shocking moments in Elliott’s trial was when it was when Guthrie admitted that she and her friends held a secret meeting about Gregory Alan Elliott in August, 2012. The event was held at the home of (former) alleged victim Paisley Rae- other participants included alleged victims Stephanie Guthrie & Heather Reiley, and their friends Rachel MacKenzie, and @PopeShakey (who’s managed to keep their name secret through the trial).
Curiously, Guthrie and fellow alleged victim Heather Reiley couldn’t remember who else attended the meeting- neither could they remember details about what was discussed at the meeting.
after this secret meeting is when he got arrested on allegations from 3 of the women present.
With all the lies posted about Elliott during all this, I'm sure he has a great case to sue Gunthrie for harassment and stalking. With her lying that he's a pedo and sent her death threats he's got a solid case for libel as well.
2016/01/24 16:36:05
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
The problem with both of those things is they take the form:
"Elliott harassed Guthrie and then she..."
I feel like he would have better ground to stand on if he was not harassing her in the first place.
I mean, you get that harassing people lowers the quality of discourse in our society, right? It detracts from productive discourse because people who could be engaging in positive discourse are instead harassing/defending from harassment, and because harassment and its defense lower the signal to noise ratio of the discussion. It also stifles speech, because people don't feel like they can participate safely in the discussion.
Creating a society where speech that damages discourse is held sacred makes speech worth less, not more.
2016/01/24 17:13:35
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I mean, you get that harassing people lowers the quality of discourse in our society, right? It detracts from productive discourse because people who could be engaging in positive discourse are instead harassing/defending from harassment, and because harassment and its defense lower the signal to noise ratio of the discussion. It also stifles speech, because people don't feel like they can participate safely in the discussion.
Creating a society where speech that damages discourse is held sacred makes speech worth less, not more.
Exalted.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/01/24 23:18:29
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
Justice Brent Knazan wrote:
Was Ms. Guthrie harassed? I accept that Ms. Guthrie was sincerely harassed within the meaning of the Criminal Code as interpreted in Lamontagne and Kosikar above. She was certainly vexed, disquieted and annoyed, but Kosikar holds that this is not enough. Using other synonyms in the Court of Appeal’s resort to the dictionary in Kosikar, she was not tormented or chronically plagued. She did feel troubled, bedevilled or badgered. But harassment has an identifiable meaning without resort to the dictionary, and that is how Ms. Guthrie felt.
The fact of her harassment came from different beliefs and positions that she held and the large volume of tweets that Mr. Elliott sent to her or about her. It came from her view that Mr. Elliott could not use Twitter in the way that he did. It came from her understanding that every tweet from Mr. Elliott that mentioned her was meant for her – even if it was a retweet of someone else’s tweet that had mentioned her. It came from her perception that she could tweet on topics without being exposed to what she viewed as his spurious, invalid tweets about the same topic – even if the topic was him, his online behaviour alleged or factual, his opinion on subjects she discussed, or insults to him.
As for the hashtags, Ms. Guthrie’s view was that when he used one associated with her – even when exercising the freedom of discussion that hashtags permit – he was intending to communicate with her, and that contributed to the fact of her harassment. But she was harassed.
The full reasons for judgement are available here if people are interested.
The full reasons for judgement are available here if people are interested.
nice job finding that. some fun things I got out of it.
All of Mr. Elliott’s tweets at issue were responses to the attacks on him that I have listed,
she was afraid by the very fact that he tweeted.
She did dislike Mr. Elliott, as made clear on July 28 when she attended a function in her honour, “Steph Guthrie Appreciation Day”. At the event, she agreed, it is possible that she said that she was planning to “teach Mr. Elliott a lesson.”
She was fully participating in a campaign to educate him about his harassment of women.
But the reason that neither Ms. Guthrie nor Crown counsel rely on any threatening or sexually inappropriate comments in the tweets is because there are none.
this sums up nicely why she lost. she and her friends attacked him, she directly communicated to him, and when he replied to defend himself from the charges, she calls the tweets defending himself harassment.
is there a way to look up the hashtags without joining twitter? I kept seeing AOTID, and others and was curious as to what they were. Just not curious enough to join twitter.
2016/01/25 05:26:55
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
I think the thing is, I can dislike and disagree with mr elliot while still acknowledging that losing 3 years of his life over this isn't in anyway a fair punishment for having an argument on the twiiter. His accusers seem equally as odious as he is.
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2016/01/26 06:23:21
Subject: score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
Compel wrote: Generally at this point, what would have happened is any particularly bad tweets would have been deleted by twitter.
We have evidence of a premediated confrontation initiated by her about him. It would have been trivially easy to grab some screenshots as she prepared her court case against him for having the gall to defend his own name in a twitter war.
But no, he was probably actually even more of a scumbag then he was accused of. That's it.
2016/01/26 06:45:29
Subject: Re:score 1 for free speach in canada the verdict on greg elliott
Crablezworth wrote: I think the thing is, I can dislike and disagree with mr elliot while still acknowledging that losing 3 years of his life over this isn't in anyway a fair punishment for having an argument on the twiiter. His accusers seem equally as odious as he is.
Its called punishment by process.
It allows for the appearance of justice and all that.
Must keep up appearances, cant have the riff raff off spouting their riff raff opinions now can we? that would just drag the level of conversation down to their level now wouldn't it?