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So we've taken the Mutilator discussion far enough off topic.

A couple of us were discussing footdar options.

Jancoran -
I haven't finalized how my list updates to the 7e codex, so its only 1427 points, but in the 6e codex, it was 1500.

HQ
Asurmen

Troops
10man DA - Exarch w/ PL and Shield
10man DA - Exarch w/ TL Shurikens

Elite
Box of Striking Scorpions - Exarch with Claw
Box of Fire Dragons - Exarch with Pike, dedicated Wave Serpent

FA
Box of Hawks - Exarch with Sun Rifle
Box of Spiders - Exarch with Power Blades and TL Spinner

HS
Box of Reapers - with S8 shots - Exarch with EML

I don't recall which powers each Exarch took, but that was the rest of the points.

Basically, it gives me a diverse force.
The Reapers give me an OK firebase (like a Dev squad or two)
Asurmen joins a DA squad and pushes forward. Can CC any non-CC unit, and does decent shooting (but the unit totals about 400 points).
The other DA squad can hold, or possibly push a poorly defended flank.
Scorpions sneak up a side.
Hawks and Spiders skirmish wherever they are needed. Great tagteam, where anything one is weak against the other is fairly good against.
The FDs threaten vehicles. Not a lot of coverage, but I had a lot of effect using them more as a threat than actually attacking (there was the one time they unloaded on a Raider point blank, and didn't touch it...).

Its got enough CC to ensure that happens, and enough dakka to push the other player to try to move forward.

I think I should split the second 10man into two 5s (need another Exarch/squad for that - don't want two squads from the same shrine), and now that its fewer points I can swap the Serpent for a Falcon (which also puts me at 2FA/2HS/2elites, which seems right).

It doesn't have a lot of long range dakka. Most optimised lists will pull it apart easily. And Boltguns are scary to it. But its a lot of fun!

Your Night lords sound fun. Wouldn't mind rack g something like that!

For those of us who haven't purchased models in a while, how many guys are in the boxes?

At least the ba whirlwind wouldn' t be worthless.

I'm not 100%, but IIRC:
6 Scorpions
6 FD
6 Hawks
5 Spiders
5 Reapers.

Martel,
That's kind of the point behind the demicompany-ish build. Whatever the opponent brings, I should have options and they should have options. In a more casual meta, its a good way to make games more fun for both players. So yes, the Whirlwind would be of use against a list like this. It could do some serious damage.

Avoiding spam is important to me, but more DAs don't seem to be a problem. More of any of the other aspects, even bringing them up to 10mans, would make it more focused.

Have you thought about dropping the wave serpent and dragons for more Hawks and spiders if you have them?

I agree that splitting the DA would be a better move. Unless a larger squad gets better weapons or you are buff heavy, smaller is the way to go in this game.

Have you tried the scroporions? I get a lot out of them but I run the Phoenix lord for a mini deathstar. The exarch and him can rip apart most squads quite easily.

Reapers aren't bad, although if you change the list up I can see this being a more in your face army. Dropping them for spiders might not be the worst option.

Can you tell what my favorite unit is?

Swooping Hawks?

Swooping Hawks.

I love them all. But easily Hawks.

I want to avoid being a pure "in your face" army. If I were trying to be more competitive, sure, but I don't really need to.

Same with dropping something for more hawks/spiders. I could certainly get more, but a big part of the list is that I *don't* have that much of 1 unit/type of unit.

The Scorpions do well. Some matchups they just don't have a target, but usually there is something to bully. They are basically an ASM squad that trades speed for sneakysneaky. They use infiltrate/move through cover to get to units that really can't CC well, and take their lunch money. In more CC-based or Tide-based games, I have to hold them back for a counter assault with my DAs (sometimes a good idea), but usually there is a good use for them, even if its just a threat. Like ASM, without a PL they are bullies, not a CC threat.

The first 10man will stay together. The Shield makes it worthwhile - that 5++ means more with more bodies. Also, that squad tends to get Asurmen into CC and help keep him alive (by dying heroicly). The other 10man I should certainly split, but need to make another Exarch (I'm sure I have enough unassembled kits to make one or two), to preserve the feel of the army. May even give him a Diresword. But then I need to paint 5 more guys (and can add in more DAs to get back to 1500).

The FDs are staying. The list hasn't much AP2 or anti-high-AV. The Falcon will feel more "right", too.

Recently someone suggest Hawks to me as an alternate to dragons since I don't have many skimmers in my army and tend to lean towards footdar. They fall down against gmcs, but I lean on mass firepower from spiders for those.

It's been working wonderfully. They perform just as well as the dragons do in many ways while being much much cheaper.

If you are going with asurymen yeah I'd keep at least one squad at max. He needs the bodies to soak up firepower and is a nasty guy if he is allowed to do what he wants all game.

My experience with scorpions are the same, although they feel a lot better than asm or raptors. They usually arrive with a lot more bodies intact due to their unique rule, and I find their exarch to be a lot better than a sarge. I've been debating using harlies instead but scorpions are just a much better model. I think the harlies would be more effective when looking at the game at a whole.


Spiders are my favorite, I own six squads of just them. I wish they had a PL but I'm not sure what else he could do for the unit. Funny you mention Hawks, bharroth is my favorite PL. I once had a hawk unit kill 10 marines in a single turn thanks to sustained assault in...I think 3rd. Extremely lucky dice but it was probably one of my favorite moments in this game.

Baharroth is pure awesome. The official model sucks, but I kitbashed one.

Typically I find that almost everything is either very vulnerable to Hawks or Spiders. They kill very different targets.

Harlequins aren't the same as Scorpions. Scorps can endure a lot more small arms, and have infiltrate vs crazy mobility, harder hitting, but dies like paper.

When I compared harlies to ss, I meant more as Cc unit. CC, outside of a few limited options, isn't something Eldar do well when compared to the other strong armies.

Overall I just find harlies to be ugly models so I've never used them. They don't seem to be more effective compared to how I run scorpions but I'm not sure, since they are so different.

Agree with you on Hawks and spiders. I haven't used the fire dragons in a while since I switched to Hawks. You really want several wave serpents but I'm finding going all foot is working out just fine. Battle focus did wonders for footdar that isn't being explored since Wk, Wg, and scat bikes exist

So how do you guys find Guardians in a (mostly) footdar list? I was looking to run a Craftworld Warhost with a Guardian Battlehost as the core formation.

What about Eldrad the Dick? He supplements footdar with Scout. That makes D-cannon artillery great. Oh, you should put your hands on those for footdar.

It's still possible to be fine with what you've got. Guardians are fine with weapon platforms in cover. Not great - just fine.

I haven't actually fielded Eldrad yet. My wife got me him probably 6 or so months ago, but I've never been big on named characters. Except the Phoenix Lords (Because Phoenix Lords, obviously).

A style of list I've always thought would be fun and nasty would be 2-3 Guardian squads with HWP, and 3 artillery units, with a lock in every unit. Maybe a unit or possibly 2 of 3 Bikes with no heavy weapon, too. Force them to come to you, and eat them with Guardians when they get forced into the killzone.

But I can't bring myself to have that many guardians. I've picked up 4-5 boxes of them, but most of them found their ways into conversions, kitbashes, and Corsairs. I'm struggling enough finishing painting my second 10-man DA unit, and at least each DA unit can look quite different....

Eldrad is solid. I usually don't take him since he's from a different craft world, but there is no denying he's a superior choice in many ways.

I really haven't tried guardians. I remember a few editions back seeing storm guardians with avatar back up but I doubt that would work now.

Does anyone use the avatar?

I've used the Avatar in three tourneys over the past 3 months and he has been fairly solid. With him, I've had a core of 3 x 10 Guardians in each army and have gone 2-1, 2-0-1, and 4-1. I've not won overall, but I've been able to compete in every event.

The Avatar does not garner a lot of attention until he ends up in assault and destroys a unit. So far, the only thing he has really been outclassed by in assault has been a tooled up Chapter Master (3++, Eternal Warrior, FnP etc...) and a Stormsurge (the Avatar got stomped on with a roll of 6...)

However, a big factor with the Avatar's success is also due to what else is in the army; having other targets that my opponent deem as a higher priority allows my Avatar to get into the necessary position.

I also always run a Craftworld Warhost in which the Avatar is a part of. This adds the guaranteed additional movement for the Avatar. Matchless agility is such a great ability and now with the Doom of Mymeara FW book, you can utilize the Pale Court as an additional Core Choice option in which you get to customize how it is set up. And you still retain the Command Ability, Matchless Agility. If anyone is running a footdar styled army, Matchless Agility should be mandatory. If you want Scatbikes, just utilize a CAD (For Example: Farseer, Bike, Spear, 3 x 3 Scatbikes). These units don't need Matchless Agility, so you are not sacrificing anything by taking them.

Roughly speaking, I'll take the following as an army. With the extra points, tailor to fit your local area.

Craftworld Warhost
Core (Pale Court)
Farseer
3 x 10 Guardians
Auxillary
Wraithknight (I prefer the FW versions)
Command
Avatar

CAD
Farseer, Bike, Spear, Stone
3 x 3 Scatterbikes
2 x 1 Warp Hunter

Wow, that is an incredibly interesting list that is quite different from what I've seen. And it seems you've run it against competitive lists as well and done quite well...

I'm going to edit my list to include the Avatar. I used to use the Court of the Young King back in the Craftworld days, and I'd love to bust him out. He just seemed like he would get shot off the table quite easily.

Appreciate the information!

Do you typically take Guardian Defenders or Storm Guardians in your Avatar warhosts?

I would think Defenders, even if Storms weren't so bad - so you can do a good bit of damage before you even assault.

I'd think an Avatar in a Swordwind list might do some good, although might call for swapping DAs for Guardians. Even Swooping Hawks and Spiders can do good CC with the Avatar's buff.

Side note, while Hawks suck at CC, they always charge Scourge when possible. Because WINGFIGHT!. The first time it was tactical (I really needed to tie them up), but now I do it because its fun. With even numbers, it lasts a very long time.

I run Defender Guardians. With Matchless Agility, they really end up having a 24" threat range.

I also tend to run them up with some models being within 12" of the Avatar to ensure they are Fearless. Model positioning becomes key as you are trying not to be too close together, yet not exposing the key model that is within range of the Avatar.

I've also utilized Rage that the Avatar confers to my Wraithknight with key charges.

The Guardians, though can have decent shooting, is really meant to harass and ultimately, get shot off the table. While 30 Guardians appear to be low priority, it's not uncommon for me to get 2 x 10 Guardians in range against a single unit.

The list itself as a lot of the tools for the tourneys I've attended. It has the ability to take an Imperial Knight off the table on turn 1 as well as peel of light infantry in a pinch. I've not found my list to be really the issue in my losses or tie, rather, a playing mistake on my part or simply getting outplayed, which has made for much better games, IMO.