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I feel as though this has come up quite a few times but searching didn't give me any results, so I'll ask anyway.

Are these the same or not? Specifically I'm thinking about warp talons atm. They blind when "...[the unit] has arrived from reserve by deepstrike...", in conjunction with Gate of infinity, which says: "...[the unit] arrives... using the rules for deepstrike"
Would this allow the Talons to blind twice for example?

I feel that in general they would not be the same but the rules for deepstrike are kinda iffy imho. So I'm thinking this wouldn't work, but honestly i'm pretty much 50/50 on this. Thoughts?

Deep strike is always deep strike, however that rule specifically states "has arrived from reserve..." nothing else matters. Gate of infinity is deep strike, however they are not coming in from reserves.

No, because GoI never places you back into ongoing reserves. It simply removes you from the board and then places you back on the board using the rules for deepstrike. No mention of reserves at all.

I agree, but that's why I say the rules for DS are kinda odd. They seem to imply that you are implicitly coming from reserve. As such deepstriking would mean you enter reserves, if only for a split second.
The first part of arriving by deepstrike says that you roll for reserves. That much seems to be built into the rule. Gate of infinity then simply specifies that you arrive immediately and therefore don't have to roll. But that would mean you arrived from reserve. I doubt that's the intention but at the same time it doesn't seem that far fetched either.

Roknar wrote:
I agree, but that's why I say the rules for DS are kinda odd. They seem to imply that you are implicitly coming from reserve. As such deepstriking would mean you enter reserves, if only for a split second.
The first part of arriving by deepstrike says that you roll for reserves. That much seems to be built into the rule. Gate of infinity then simply specifies that you arrive immediately and therefore don't have to roll. But that would mean you arrived from reserve. I doubt that's the intention but at the same time it doesn't seem that far fetched either.

Well I mean if you want to go down that route, the Very VERY beginning of Deepstrike rules state that in order for a unit to deepstrike, it must posses the deepstrike rule and start the game in reserves. So if someone wants to argue double blind, I would argue that a unit removed from table and by GoI and placed back into reserves did not start the game in reserves and fails to meet that criteria. Ergo, that unit may never enter back into the game. However, the answer to original question doesn't change.....no double blind. GoI uses the rules for deepstrike, which is one of several ways to arrive from reserves. Deepstriking does not in itself put you into reserves.

Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are two different terms that refer to the same thing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are two different terms that refer to the same thing.

No they are not...

The rules say that telling your opponent a unit placed in Reserve will be arriving by Deep Strike is the same as Deep Strike Reserve...

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

I don't think it's clear (and I think it seems to work better if we consider it's not) that simply arriving using the rules for Deep Strike during the game, not having been placed in Reserve, is the same thing.

People seem to confuse "Deep Strike Reserve" to mean "Deep Strike + Reserves", despite the BRB telling us that arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve. Where does it use the term "Deep Strike Reserve" in the same context as "arriving be Deep Strike"? Several rule books and codexes that predate the current BRB. 7th ed tells us that when arriving by Deep Strike, some rules reference Deep Strike Reserve, which means the same thing as arriving by Deep Strike.

It's the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or the difference between a Psyker and a Psyker Unit. People get hung up on words as specific terms, terms GW do not use consistantly or intentionally. Yet when GW does tell us what a term means, the interwebz still argue over it.

SJ

The specification "deep strike reserve" comes from the deepstrike rule. You have to state before the game that this unit in reserves will be arriving via deepstrike and thus is in deepstrike reserve as opposed to just sitting in reserve and arriving via any legal method.

A unit in deepstrike reserve has to arrive via deepstrike.

They are otherwise, the same place/thing.

Deep Strike, and Deep Strike Reserves are not the same thing.

It is like saying Assault, and Assault Move are the same thing- they are not.

One require you to be in reserves, the other does not.

Here is a rules example to make it completely unambiguous.

A SM vehicle known as the stormraven has a special rule that allows an unit it is transporting to Deep Strike onto a point it has moved over.

The Stormraven is on the table, the unit is embarked in the stormraven and is also "arrived" although not deployed on the table and is in no way in reserves.

The Stormraven moves, and later the unit embarked elects to disembark being placed using the rules for deep strike. Nothing about this rule tells us the unit is in reserve, or counts as being in reserves, or has arrived from deep strike reserves.

To say the unit was in reserves when it was placed using the rules for deepstrike is false, the unit was arrived on the table embarked in the transport, it was in no way or form in reserves.

Deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing, one means you are arriving from reserves by deep strike, the other has nothing to do with reserves.

arriving by deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves, because you can also say the unit is arriving by deep striking. This statement does not mean they are interchangeable, as shown by actual rules of gameplay above.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
People seem to confuse "Deep Strike Reserve" to mean "Deep Strike + Reserves", despite the BRB telling us that arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve. Where does it use the term "Deep Strike Reserve" in the same context as "arriving be Deep Strike"? Several rule books and codexes that predate the current BRB. 7th ed tells us that when arriving by Deep Strike, some rules reference Deep Strike Reserve, which means the same thing as arriving by Deep Strike.

I am not confused at all. Deep Strike Reserves means the unit was put in Reserves and declared to be Deep Striking, just like the entire sentence before the "(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)" tells us.

The only confusion is by people who ignore 75% of the sentence and only pay attention to the last few words of a sentence, and thus ignore the context of the parenthetical.

To demonstrate, here is the whole sentence:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It's the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or the difference between a Psyker and a Psyker Unit. People get hung up on words as specific terms, terms GW do not use consistantly or intentionally. Yet when GW does tell us what a term means, the interwebz still argue over it.

It is not the same issue at all.

Deep Strike Reserves comes with a sentence linking it to being in Reserves and arriving from Deep Strike (see the Spoiler above). Psyker is a USR and the name of a model and the unit it is in with that USR, which further links to the description that links the Psyker model to Psyker unit all in the Psychic Phase rules.

Assault Cannon is only a weapon title and the only confusion that would exist here in thinking that it's type is Assault is if one does not read the entire rules involved. Sound familiar?

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
As far as I can tell, the brackets here are only referring to deepstrike being called deepstrike reserve sometimes. Not the act of putting a unit in reserve and saying it will arrive by deepstrike. In that sense deep strike and deepstrike reserve would be the exact same thing.

Furthermore, the rules on actually arriving by deepstrike (/ deepstrike reserve) expect you to roll for reserves, which makes no sense if a unit doesn't actually enter reserves before deepstriking. In this case, the talons could jump twice.

The problem with that is that in order to be able to deepstrike in the first place you would have to start the game in reserve to begin with as quickfuze pointed out. I'm not so much bothered by the example of the storm raven. Gate of infnitiy has a unit already on the board that still "arrives" when using the power. On the contrary, the term "arrive", to me implies the use of reserves too. So I'm still on the fence about this.

Roknar wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
As far as I can tell, the brackets here are only referring to deepstrike being called deepstrike reserve sometimes. Not the act of putting a unit in reserve and saying it will arrive by deepstrike. In that sense deep strike and deepstrike reserve would be the exact same thing.

This only works if you ignore the whole sentence which provides the context. Much like ignoring the Heavy Type for Assault Cannons.

Furthermore, the rules on actually arriving by deepstrike (/ deepstrike reserve) expect you to roll for reserves, which makes no sense if a unit doesn't actually enter reserves before deepstriking. In this case, the talons could jump twice.

The problem with that is that in order to be able to deepstrike in the first place you would have to start the game in reserve to begin with as quickfuze pointed out. I'm not so much bothered by the example of the storm raven. Gate of infnitiy has a unit already on the board that still "arrives" when using the power. On the contrary, the term "arrive", to me implies the use of reserves too. So I'm still on the fence about this.

In every case that involves Deep Strike rules without Reserves, such as Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness, the unit is removed from the table, then arrives back on the table using the rules of Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike is its own section of the Deep Strike rules, so we are not required to use anything not referenced by it.

This section starts by having you make a Reserves roll, but these other rules override this by having the unit " immediately arrive" instead.

So Veil of Darkness does not allow Deathbringers to use Hunters from Hyperspace right after they have been on the table and moved by the Veil.

Mishapping in to Ongoing Reserves would technically be a different story, however.