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I can't seem to get my head around this concept. It's not like Lords or War or Fortifications where there is a single slot for them and that's it.

Are Formations detachments into and unto themselves, and so the models in my CAD detachment cannot be Formations?
Are Formations just special rules given to models in a CAD detachment that fulfill my requirements?
How many formations can I take? This is the main thing.

For example, if I wanted to take a CAD Space Marine force, with a Chaplain, Command Squad and Razorback, along with 3 Tactical Squads. Can I field the Chaplain and Co as a Reclusium Command Squad, or would this leave me without the mandatory HQ as the Chaplain would be technically a seperate detachment? If I added a bike squad, a Dev squad and a Captain, can I then field a RCS and a Demi-Company, or are they seperate detachments? And furthermore, in these specific cases of C: SM, can each Formation then, if they are a seperate detachment, be a seperate Chapter? Could I for example take a Battle-demi company as Ultramarines, and then a First Company Task Force of Sternguard as Imperial Fists for Bolter Drill?

I'm just totally lost on this.

 Deadshot wrote:
I can't seem to get my head around this concept. It's not like Lords or War or Fortifications where there is a single slot for them and that's it.

Are Formations detachments into and unto themselves, and so the models in my CAD detachment cannot be Formations?

Exactly!

Are Formations just special rules given to models in a CAD detachment that fulfill my requirements?

Not at all. They're their own detachments, unless they're taken as part of a special detachment (eg Decurion or Gladius)

How many formations can I take? This is the main thing.

As many as you like, although some tournaments do restrict the number and variance - e.g. the ITC restricts you to 3 detachments.

For example, if I wanted to take a CAD Space Marine force, with a Chaplain, Command Squad and Razorback, along with 3 Tactical Squads. Can I field the Chaplain and Co as a Reclusium Command Squad, or would this leave me without the mandatory HQ as the Chaplain would be technically a seperate detachment? If I added a bike squad, a Dev squad and a Captain, can I then field a RCS and a Demi-Company, or are they seperate detachments?

Your example looks like this

Detachment 1: Combined Arms Detachment

HQ: missing 1 mandatory HQ
Troops: 2x Tactical Squads as mandatory choices plus another optional Tactical Squad

---
Detachment 2: Reclusiam Command Squad
1 Chaplain
1 Command Squad
1 Razorback

----

Once you add a bike squad, a dev squad and a captain you can either run this as a CAD:

HQ: Captain
Troop: 3x Tactical Squads
Fast Attack: 1x Bike Squad
Heavy Support: 1x Devastator Squad

plus the RCS

OR you run it as Demi-Company plus the RCS. Same units, but instead of using the CAD rules you'll use the Demi-Battle Company rules. But unless noted otherwise, a single unit may only ever be part of one detachment (and since Formations are detachments, this also applies to them). There are exceptions to this, for Codex: Space Marines it only applies to three detachments: Gladius Strike Force, Scarblade Strike Force and Talon Strike Force. These three are much more complicated, you should probably ignore them for now.

And furthermore, in these specific cases of C: SM, can each Formation then, if they are a seperate detachment, be a seperate Chapter? Could I for example take a Battle-demi company as Ultramarines, and then a First Company Task Force of Sternguard as Imperial Fists for Bolter Drill?

Yes, this is absolutely allowed. It is only forbidden when you build a Gladius Strike Force (which is a detachment consisting of multiple formations), all formations of one Gladius Strike Force must run the same Chapter Tactics. Scarblade and Talon Strike Forces are limited to White Scars and Raven Guard anyway, so you'd have no choice with them anyway.

I'm just totally lost on this.

That's what we're here for

I though you could have a formation in a CAD as long as you have the slots available. Otherwise rules from SM IC's are useless. Like a 1st company force in a detachment with in a CAD with 2 troops and pedro.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I though you could have a formation in a CAD as long as you have the slots available. Otherwise rules from SM IC's are useless. Like a 1st company force in a detachment with in a CAD with 2 troops and pedro.

No. Models can only belong to a single detachment, and a formation is a detachment.

Here is My Example:

CAD
-Pedro
-Tact Squad
-Tact Squad
-1ST Company
>Sternguard
>Sternguard
>Sternguard
>Sternguard
-Librarius Conclave
>Librarian
>Librarian
-Devastators
-Vindicator

Again, models can only belong to a single detachment. The 1st Company Formation is separate from the Combined Arms Detachment, not a part of it. The only exception are the 'super detachments' such as the Gladius Strike Force.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I though you could have a formation in a CAD as long as you have the slots available. Otherwise rules from SM IC's are useless. Like a 1st company force in a detachment with in a CAD with 2 troops and pedro.

Not sure what the issue is, but you can simply bring the following list:

Detachment#1: Combined Arms Detachment
HQ: Pedro
Troops: 2x Tactical Squad

Detachment#2: 1st Company Task Force
Choice 1: Sternguard Veterans
Choice 2: Vanguard Veterans
Choice 3: Assault Terminators and a Land Raider

They're of the same faction and if you give them the same Chapter Tactics you can almost treat them as one army - Pedro can join any of the 1stCTF units if he pleases. It's just that The CAD has their bonus (eg Warlord trait reroll, ObSec for the Tacticals) and the 1stCTF has different special rules - they'd not actually gain anything from being part of the CAD anyway, as all available choices are Elite choices in a CAD.

*edit* Feel free to add Devas/Vindicator to the CAD and add a 3rd detachment of Librarian Conclave to the army list, works just fine. But neither the Libs nor the 1stCTF are PART of the CAD.

nekooni wrote:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I though you could have a formation in a CAD as long as you have the slots available. Otherwise rules from SM IC's are useless. Like a 1st company force in a detachment with in a CAD with 2 troops and pedro.

Not sure what the issue is, but you can simply bring the following list:

Detachment#1: Combined Arms Detachment
HQ: Pedro
Troops: 2x Tactical Squad

Detachment#2: 1st Company Task Force
Choice 1: Sternguard Veterans
Choice 2: Vanguard Veterans
Choice 3: Assault Terminators and a Land Raider

They're of the same faction and if you give them the same Chapter Tactics you can almost treat them as one army - Pedro can join any of the 1stCTF units if he pleases. It's just that The CAD has their bonus (eg Warlord trait reroll, ObSec for the Tacticals) and the 1stCTF has different special rules - they'd not actually gain anything from being part of the CAD anyway, as all available choices are Elite choices in a CAD.

*edit* Feel free to add Devas/Vindicator to the CAD and add a 3rd detachment of Librarian Conclave to the army list, works just fine. But neither the Libs nor the 1stCTF are PART of the CAD.

In that particular case he's talking about pedro's Hold the Line! rule which gives Sternguard in his detachment ObjSec. So assumably the Sg in this set up won't get it.


Thanks for the explanation, certainly clears things up!

The issue is Pedro's special rule:

Hold the Line: Sternguard Veterans that are part of Pedro Kantor’s Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.

This would only effect Sternguard taken as part of the Combined Arms Detachment. It would have no effect on Sternguard taken as a part of the 1st Company Task Force Formation.

 Deadshot wrote:

In that particular case he's talking about pedro's Hold the Line! rule which gives Sternguard in his detachment ObjSec. So assumably the Sg in this set up won't get it.


Thanks for the explanation, certainly clears things up!

Ah! I usually play UM or WS, so I'm not familiar with the other named characters - but yeah, that is exactly why you have to make the distinction between the different detachments.

I'm not sure how Pedro and Veterans actually interact within a Gladius Strike Force though, maybe that's an option? You'd have to look at the exact wordings, but the guys in the 1st CTF are part of the Gladius Detachment just like Pedro. Again - not based on the rules, you'd have to verify those.

Ah got it the strike force is nice just very expensive points wise.

Again, your example is wrong. The 1st Company Task Force is not a part of the Combined Arms Detachment.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, your example is wrong. The 1st Company Task Force is not a part of the Combined Arms Detachment.

You might want to quote whoever you're replying to, but I think both btgrimaldus and Deadshot got the point already.

nekooni wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, your example is wrong. The 1st Company Task Force is not a part of the Combined Arms Detachment.

You might want to quote whoever you're replying to, but I think both btgrimaldus and Deadshot got the point already.

After he edited his post.

So what about supplements and formations?

So if you use the Black Legion supplement and want to run a chaos formation can you since the supplement uses the unit from the CSM codex?

I'm not sure what you're asking. A formation from a supplement should specify what units are in the formation, whether those are from the supplement itself or the codex it supplements.

The Black legion Sup doesn't have any formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Black legion Sup doesn't have any formations. im asking can you use that sup with like the hell brute formations or mayhem formation.

Yes.

A formation is a stand-alone detachment. You can slap it to ANY army. For example, I could take a Combined Arms Detachment of Space Marines and add a Hell Brute Formation and still have a legal army because the formation is it's own detachment.

You can have a Hell Brute Formation, a CAD of whatever units are in the Black Legion Sup. AND a Gladius Detachment from Codex Space Marines and STILL have a legal battleforged army.

You can take a CAD. With all the appropriate compulsory slots. Than you could take another CAD. Or you can add a formation from any book in the 40k universe. Or 5 formations if you had the points or additional 6 CADs. Or just take formations with no CAD. None of this would be considered "unbound".

Just note, the ally rule is in affect. Pretty simple.

To answer the original question, they're outside it.

The Combined Arms Detachment (The old Force Org Chart) is essentially its own formation. Non-unbound armies consist of 1+ formations. Some formations consist of sub-detachments (Gladius Strike Force, Decurion, etc.).

Think of them as their own Force Org charts that are completely distinct, and you can take as many as fit within your points limit.

I really think re-reading the relevant sections of the rules would help with this question. A couple of rules quotes might help you...

From 'Detachments' in the Choosing Your Army section of the rulebook:

"There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow. However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment."

Then from 'Selecting Detachments' in the same section:

"1) Force Organisation Chart

This shows the number of units of each battlefield role that you may include in this Detachment. Black boxes are choices you must include to take this Detachment, whilst grey boxes are optional choices."

And then from 'Formations' later in the same section:

"Formations are a special type of Detachment..."

And then shortly after in the same paragraph:

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

From this we see that you may include any number of detachments in a Battle-forged army, and that all of the units in your army may only belong to one Detachment (although there are some specific exceptions to this, though they explicitly say as much). We see that a Detachment's Force Organisation Charts tell you how many units of a given Battlefield Role type you may include in that detachment. And then we see that Formations are a special type of Detachment, and that they do not use a Force Organisation Chart.

BrainFireBob wrote:
The Combined Arms Detachment (The old Force Org Chart) is essentially its own formation.

The Combined Arms Detachment is not a formation. It is a detachment (hence its name). While its true that all formations are a (special) type of detachment, the reverse is not true. Not all detachments are formations.

BrainFireBob wrote:
Non-unbound armies consist of 1+ formations.

That would be 1+ detachments and/or formations or simply 1+ detachments (since formations are detachments).

BrainFireBob wrote:
Some formations consist of sub-detachments (Gladius Strike Force, Decurion, etc.).

The Gladius Strike Force and the Decurion are not formations. They are detachments. They usually consist of a formation as a core choice (e.g., the Reclamation Legion in the Decurion) and a number of formations and/or units as auxiliary choices, command choices, etc. (e.g. the Canoptek Harvest is a formation that is an auxiliary choice in a Decurion while the Flayed Ones is a unit which is a unit which is an auxiliary choice in a Decurion).

It seems like, aside from Ghaz, there's still a lot of confusion so I'm gonna list it out bit by bit (all crucial terms will have caps):

If you want to have a Battle Forged Army, all your units must be in Detachments.

A Detachment can be either a Force Organization Chart (also known as a FOC) OR a Formation OR a "Decurion" style Detachment.

Force Organization Chart Detachments have slots that allows you to purchase any units with the correct faction and slot. There is a minimum and a maximum to the slots.

Formations have a set number of units and types of units you must purchase to fulfill, along with some restrictions if there are any.

"Decurion"- style Detachments acts like a Force Organization Chart but uses Formations AND individual units. Instead of slots, it has "Choices", which are listed out in the "Decurion's" description.

Decurions and some Formations (like The Archangels formation) are the only times where the unit can belong to a Formation within another Detachment. This is explicitly written out as such. Other than this exception, a unit CANNOT belong to two detachments at the same time. Think of each detachment as a separate "army" on it's own (I put "army" in quotes here because the term Army actually means everything you bring to the table in the game, but there isn't another word that better fits an "autonomous fighting force" better than it) The above example would be that the Sternguard would either get the rules of the 1st Company Taskforce OR Kantor's special rules, not both. This is because Kantor only grants the ability to Sternguard Units in his Detachment.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It seems like, aside from Ghaz, there's still a lot of confusion so I'm gonna list it out bit by bit (all crucial terms will have caps):

If you want to have a Battle Forged Army, all your units must be in Detachments.

A Detachment can be either a Force Organization Chart (also known as a FOC) OR a Formation OR a "Decurion" style Detachment.

Force Organization Chart Detachments have slots that allows you to purchase any units with the correct faction and slot. There is a minimum and a maximum to the slots.

Formations have a set number of units and types of units you must purchase to fulfill, along with some restrictions if there are any.

"Decurion"- style Detachments acts like a Force Organization Chart but uses Formations AND individual units. Instead of slots, it has "Choices", which are listed out in the "Decurion's" description.

Decurions and some Formations (like The Archangels formation) are the only times where the unit can belong to a Formation within another Detachment. This is explicitly written out as such. Other than this exception, a unit CANNOT belong to two detachments at the same time. Think of each detachment as a separate "army" on it's own (I put "army" in quotes here because the term Army actually means everything you bring to the table in the game, but there isn't another word that better fits an "autonomous fighting force" better than it) The above example would be that the Sternguard would either get the rules of the 1st Company Taskforce OR Kantor's special rules, not both. This is because Kantor only grants the ability to Sternguard Units in his Detachment.

At this point I think you're reiterating the reiteration. Points been driving home and the horse is dead. Cool that you continue to try to clarify I guess.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It seems like, aside from Ghaz, there's still a lot of confusion so I'm gonna list it out bit by bit (all crucial terms will have caps):

Seriously? I made this all clear with specific rules references.

A Detachment can be either a Force Organization Chart (also known as a FOC) OR a Formation OR a "Decurion" style Detachment.

This is incorrect. All non-Formation Detachments have a Force Organisation Chart. Force Organisation Chart is not a type is Detachment.

The difference between Decurion-style and ordinary non-Formation Detachments is that the former's FOC is made up of Formation and Army List Entry selections while the latter's is made up of Battlefield Role selections. Both still use a Force Organisation Chart, though.

"Decurion"- style Detachments acts like a Force Organization Chart but uses Formations AND individual units. Instead of slots, it has "Choices", which are listed out in the "Decurion's" description.

As above, there's no "acting like". From the Gladius Strike Force, for example:

"The Gladius Strike Force is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles."

I believe the Necron Decurion, Eldar Craftworld Warhost etc. all have the same or similar wording.

Anyone else wanna answer the questions I answered in post #2 again? I'm sure we can catch up to the ICs clusterfeth thread in no time.