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As a strong unifier across vast distances nothing beats religion. Also as a tool religion would neatly explain the aliens in the warp(aka demons) & why they were bad. In a Justinian/Constintinian fashion I could very easily see Guilliman using religion as a crutch to rebuild & weld the empire together.

No, he did not.

During the Great Crusade, there were hundreds of Emperor-worshipping cults on Terra, and more across the rest of the compliant Imperium.

After the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne, they basically fought each other to the death, either absorbing or eliminating other cults until the first Ecclesiarch, leader of the winner (the Temple of the Saviour Emperor) marched up to the High Lords and said: "Look. I got your Empire under control for you. Give me a chair."

And Bobby G looked at him, shrugged and said: "Sure, I guess."

The Imperial cults were heavily promoted by Lorgar, who wrote a certain book...

Nomeny wrote:
The Imperial cults were heavily promoted by Lorgar, who wrote a certain book...

... that did not survive the Heresy. The Lectitio Divinatus was destroyed, unless it gets retconned in further.

The original copy was. But there were millions of pamphlets and copies throughout the Imperium that allowed the belief to grow.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, he did not.

During the Great Crusade, there were hundreds of Emperor-worshipping cults on Terra, and more across the rest of the compliant Imperium.

After the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne, they basically fought each other to the death, either absorbing or eliminating other cults until the first Ecclesiarch, leader of the winner (the Temple of the Saviour Emperor) marched up to the High Lords and said: "Look. I got your Empire under control for you. Give me a chair."

And Bobby G looked at him, shrugged and said: "Sure, I guess."

I was unaware of an official history descibing the creation of the Ecclisiarchy. Is it in the SoB codex?

What i was realy going for was whether or not Roboute would have done so, or perhaps on the sly created the Ecclisiarchy. Personaly I think so. In this sign go forth and conquer. Etc etc. Its too smart, too easy & a proven method for uniting a disparate empire. Letting "the people" do it as part of a "popular movement " would just lend the institution an aura of sanctity. Especially since armed groups of religious fanatics battling openly in the strets for the heart & soul of the empire ,unopposed, doesn't seem Roboute's style.

P.S.
Bobby G?
The judgement , Sacrilege.
The sentence, crucifixion.
Requiem In Paces.

jareddm wrote:The original copy was. But there were millions of pamphlets and copies throughout the Imperium that allowed the belief to grow.

Not the book, the cult.

The cult that followed the book was also called the Lectitio Divinatus - since the cult that became the Ecclesiarchy was not the Lecitito Divinatus, but was in fact the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, that means that the Lectitio Divinatus cult must have been destroyed.

Red Marine wrote:I was unaware of an official history descibing the creation of the Ecclisiarchy. Is it in the SoB codex?

What i was realy going for was whether or not Roboute would have done so, or perhaps on the sly created the Ecclisiarchy. Personaly I think so. In this sign go forth and conquer. Etc etc. Its too smart, too easy & a proven method for uniting a disparate empire. Letting "the people" do it as part of a "popular movement " would just lend the institution an aura of sanctity. Especially since armed groups of religious fanatics battling openly in the strets for the heart & soul of the empire ,unopposed, doesn't seem Roboute's style.

P.S.
Bobby G?
The judgement , Sacrilege.
The sentence, crucifixion.
Requiem In Paces.

The cut down version is in the current book - the full history hasn't been printed since second edition, unfortunately. The history of the Ecclesiarchy from the Great Crusade through to the 41st millenium is heavily detailed in the second edition Sister of Battle codex, however.

Roboute didn't really care about the common people, he was only concerned with government. Besides, the Emperor had already been letting it happen for quite a while, so he probably thought that if the Emperor didn't think fixing it was important, it could wait till later under his rule too. In any case, no, Roboute is only the spiritual liege of the Space Marines, he wasn't responsible for single-handedly fixing the entire Imperium.

The Lectitio Divinatus wasn't destroyed, Garro became part of it and I believe it is referenced in more recent 40K lore.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
The Lectitio Divinatus wasn't destroyed, Garro became part of it and I believe it is referenced in more recent 40K lore.

Where is this more recent reference?

The history of the Ecclesiarchy is very clearly laid out with no ambiguity - and the LD isn't in it. The two major factions of the Ecclesiarchy are the Temple of the Saviour Emperor and the Confederation of Light. End of.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

jareddm wrote:The original copy was. But there were millions of pamphlets and copies throughout the Imperium that allowed the belief to grow.

Not the book, the cult.

The cult that followed the book was also called the Lectitio Divinatus - since the cult that became the Ecclesiarchy was not the Lecitito Divinatus, but was in fact the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, that means that the Lectitio Divinatus cult must have been destroyed.

Uh huh... because an organization can't change its name in the thousand years between its inception and it becoming a state religion...

jareddm wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

jareddm wrote:The original copy was. But there were millions of pamphlets and copies throughout the Imperium that allowed the belief to grow.

Not the book, the cult.

The cult that followed the book was also called the Lectitio Divinatus - since the cult that became the Ecclesiarchy was not the Lecitito Divinatus, but was in fact the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, that means that the Lectitio Divinatus cult must have been destroyed.

Uh huh... because an organization can't change its name in the thousand years between its inception and it becoming a state religion...

Well, it could have, but it didn't - the Temple of the Saviour Emperor originated on Terra, while the Lectitio Divinatus was formed on a Crusade Fleet.

Yeah...I'm having a lot of trouble with the idea that millions of armed religious fanatics demanded a position amongst the High Lords of Terra & "Bobby G's" response was, "I've spent centuries killing rebels,including my own brothers, but you guys seem cool. Sure, I guess. ". Roboutte Guilliman was the one who sentenced the first born sons of all Vostroyan citizens to a life of service in the IG. Then I'm dsupposed to swallow some story about him bending over for rebel fanatics? Him AND the HLoTs? If he didnt personaly engineer the Imperial cult he must have had a hand in it.

Its been 25 yeats of 40k fluff for me. I remember when Rogal Dorn was still a Imperial Army general. When did the HLoT come into being? Didnt Roboute & his brothers help create them?

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah...I'm having a lot of trouble with the idea that millions of armed religious fanatics demanded a position amongst the High Lords of Terra & "Bobby G's" response was, "I've spent centuries killing rebels,including my own brothers, but you guys seem cool. Sure, I guess. ". Roboutte Guilliman was the one who sentenced the first born sons of all Vostroyan citizens to a life of service in the IG. Then I'm dsupposed to swallow some story about him bending over for rebel fanatics? Him AND the HLoTs? If he didnt personaly engineer the Imperial cult he must have had a hand in it.

Its been 25 yeats of 40k fluff for me. I remember when Rogal Dorn was still a Imperial Army general. When did the HLoT come into being? Didnt Roboute & his brothers help create them?

No Emps created them to govern for him so that he could work on the Imperial Webway Project (fourth paragraph of history section).

jareddm wrote:
Uh huh... because an organization can't change its name in the thousand years between its inception and it becoming a state religion...

What thousands years? At most a few hundreds years after the Siege of Terra, some highly decorated Imperial guard/Imperial Army commander that had fought during the Siege of Terra, remembered only as Fatidicus, created the Ecclesiarchy. Unless anyone can point to any link between Lorgar and Fatidicus, then Lorgar has nothing to do with the Ecclesiarchy.


Fatidicus, people. That's the guy who created the Ecclesiarchy. Remember that name!

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah...I'm having a lot of trouble with the idea that millions of armed religious fanatics demanded a position amongst the High Lords of Terra & "Bobby G's" response was, "I've spent centuries killing rebels,including my own brothers, but you guys seem cool. Sure, I guess. ".

That's not how it happened. It took a very long time for the Ecclesiarchy to become the de-facto religion of the whole of the Imperium. By the time it had happened (I am not sure that at this point, Roboute was already poisoned or not), it was not millions of armed religious fanatics that demanded a position. It was the leader of a very organized, very influential organization. They had tons of riches (through donations from their flock), tons of influence (being listened to by ignorant masses and powerful yet faithful individuals alike), they had an organized hierarchy that was incredibly far from the chaos of pitchfork-wielding zealots you describe, and it was only natural for them to get a position. It then took even more time before they got a permanent position.

I personally think that there can be connections between the Lectitio Divinitatus and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor/Confederation of Light that would later form the modern basis of the Ecclesiarchy. The followers of the Lecitito Divinitatus as depicted in the Horus Heresy novels are clearly using ideas and beliefs that are common with the current depiction of the Ecclesiarchy, most particularly in their central belief that "The Emperor Protects".

Euphrati Keeler, who becomes to be referred to in those novels as the first Imperial Saint, is shown using nothing more than her faith that the Emperor Protects to hold a summoned Demon at bay and banish it back into the warp. She is then further shown to have divine prescience in guiding a small force of Loyalists in escaping Istvaan III to deliver the warning of betrayal to Terra. It's during this escape that Nathaniel Garro, a Loyalist Death Guard Captain, becomes to believe in the Lectitio Divinitatus and it's message that The Emperor is a God and will Protect mankind. Garro's following adventures as an agent of Malcador the Sigillite (aka the Emperor's Right Hand Man) can put a believer in the Lectitio Divinitatus right at the highest levels of Terra from the outset of the Heresy. I don't think its too difficult to believe that this could have led to a spread of belief in the Emperor as a God on Terra, which eventually culminates over time in a distinct collection of dogma that would get formally established as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor after the Heresy.

Personally I like the idea of Lorgar's original belief of The Emperor as a divine entity being the root-cause of the current Imperial Cult. It has a nice touch of irony, that one of the most bitter enemies of the Imperium was ultimately responsible for creating the very belief system that holds it together in the 41st millennium. And that if The Emperor himself had perhaps taken a more lenient approach in his dismissal of Lorgar's beliefs, then Lorgar would never have taken steps to uncover The Primordial Truth and thus let Chaos corrupt the Imperium.

Looking at the wiki its as I remember. Roboute set up the HLoT and the rest of the IoMs bureaucracy. He gave himself a leading position amongst the HLoT as thw Warlord. For the years after the HH he really was a Cesar Augustus like figure guiding the IoM.

Of course its also a lot wiki & retconned ancient fluff, so...

As to the ecclisiarchy it apears it formed waaayyy after. I guess any guidance of the Imperial Cult would have been very distant. Helping to create the Church of the Empire seemed very much in keeping with Cesarean-esque scheming.

So does anyone think he might have had a hand in it?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah...I'm having a lot of trouble with the idea that millions of armed religious fanatics demanded a position amongst the High Lords of Terra & "Bobby G's" response was, "I've spent centuries killing rebels,including my own brothers, but you guys seem cool. Sure, I guess. ". Roboutte Guilliman was the one who sentenced the first born sons of all Vostroyan citizens to a life of service in the IG. Then I'm dsupposed to swallow some story about him bending over for rebel fanatics? Him AND the HLoTs? If he didnt personaly engineer the Imperial cult he must have had a hand in it.

Its been 25 yeats of 40k fluff for me. I remember when Rogal Dorn was still a Imperial Army general. When did the HLoT come into being? Didnt Roboute & his brothers help create them?

No Emps created them to govern for him so that he could work on the Imperial Webway Project (fourth paragraph of history section).

That was the Council of Terra. The Senatorum Imperialis, the modern Council of the High Lords of Terra, was created by Guilliman to replace the Council, which was little more than an administrative arm overseen by Malcador (who was Regent of Terra at the time)..

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah...I'm having a lot of trouble with the idea that millions of armed religious fanatics demanded a position amongst the High Lords of Terra & "Bobby G's" response was, "I've spent centuries killing rebels,including my own brothers, but you guys seem cool. Sure, I guess. ". Roboutte Guilliman was the one who sentenced the first born sons of all Vostroyan citizens to a life of service in the IG. Then I'm dsupposed to swallow some story about him bending over for rebel fanatics? Him AND the HLoTs? If he didnt personaly engineer the Imperial cult he must have had a hand in it.

Its been 25 yeats of 40k fluff for me. I remember when Rogal Dorn was still a Imperial Army general. When did the HLoT come into being? Didnt Roboute & his brothers help create them?

No Emps created them to govern for him so that he could work on the Imperial Webway Project (fourth paragraph of history section).

That was the Council of Terra. The Senatorum Imperialis, the modern Council of the High Lords of Terra, was created by Guilliman to replace the Council, which was little more than an administrative arm overseen by Malcador (who was Regent of Terra at the time)..

My bad, it appears that Emps only created the precursor to the HLoT.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


That was the Council of Terra. The Senatorum Imperialis, the modern Council of the High Lords of Terra, was created by Guilliman to replace the Council, which was little more than an administrative arm overseen by Malcador (who was Regent of Terra at the time)..

It's still Guilleman simply giving permission for the already-established Temple of the Saviour Emperor to have a seat at the ruling table.

Also, thanks Oxy, for filling in the details my old lady brain had forgotten.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


That was the Council of Terra. The Senatorum Imperialis, the modern Council of the High Lords of Terra, was created by Guilliman to replace the Council, which was little more than an administrative arm overseen by Malcador (who was Regent of Terra at the time)..

It's still Guilleman simply giving permission for the already-established Temple of the Saviour Emperor to have a seat at the ruling table.

Also, thanks Oxy, for filling in the details my old lady brain had forgotten.

Guilliman didn't give the Ecclesiarchy a seat on the Senatorum. The existent High Lords did the early 32nd Millennium, when the Temple was officially recognized as the state religion of the Imperium (becoming the Adeptus Ministorum). The seat was also temporary until three centuries after it was established.


The Battle of Thessala, where Fulgrim laid Guilliman low, took place in 121.M31.

A very erudite conversation on science fictional theology.

 GoonBandito wrote:
I personally think that there can be connections between the Lectitio Divinitatus and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor/Confederation of Light that would later form the modern basis of the Ecclesiarchy. The followers of the Lecitito Divinitatus as depicted in the Horus Heresy novels are clearly using ideas and beliefs that are common with the current depiction of the Ecclesiarchy, most particularly in their central belief that "The Emperor Protects".

Euphrati Keeler, who becomes to be referred to in those novels as the first Imperial Saint, is shown using nothing more than her faith that the Emperor Protects to hold a summoned Demon at bay and banish it back into the warp. She is then further shown to have divine prescience in guiding a small force of Loyalists in escaping Istvaan III to deliver the warning of betrayal to Terra. It's during this escape that Nathaniel Garro, a Loyalist Death Guard Captain, becomes to believe in the Lectitio Divinitatus and it's message that The Emperor is a God and will Protect mankind. Garro's following adventures as an agent of Malcador the Sigillite (aka the Emperor's Right Hand Man) can put a believer in the Lectitio Divinitatus right at the highest levels of Terra from the outset of the Heresy. I don't think its too difficult to believe that this could have led to a spread of belief in the Emperor as a God on Terra, which eventually culminates over time in a distinct collection of dogma that would get formally established as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor after the Heresy.

Personally I like the idea of Lorgar's original belief of The Emperor as a divine entity being the root-cause of the current Imperial Cult. It has a nice touch of irony, that one of the most bitter enemies of the Imperium was ultimately responsible for creating the very belief system that holds it together in the 41st millennium. And that if The Emperor himself had perhaps taken a more lenient approach in his dismissal of Lorgar's beliefs, then Lorgar would never have taken steps to uncover The Primordial Truth and thus let Chaos corrupt the Imperium.

It is a commonly accepted fact that the teachings of the Ecclessiarchy (and many of the other cults) were originally based on Lorgar's book Lectitio Divinitatus. It is on all the wikis, 1d4chan and I am pretty sure I must have read it in a BL book or 2. But now that I am searching for it, I can't find any actual evidence of this fact. Doesn't anyone have a source for this?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It is a commonly accepted fact that the teachings of the Ecclessiarchy (and many of the other cults) were originally based on Lorgar's book Lectitio Divinitatus. It is on all the wikis, 1d4chan and I am pretty sure I must have read it in a BL book or 2. But now that I am searching for it, I can't find any actual evidence of this fact. Doesn't anyone have a source for this?

Nope, because there isn't any. The Lecititio Divinatus was introduced in Horus Rising as Lorgar's book that created a cult worshipping the Emperor as a god, and everyone assumed that it was the source of the Ecclesiarchy, since most people have never read the actual history of the Ecclesiarchy.

Lexicanum at least has the grace to say it's only "believed" to be the source, even though that belief is purely among players.

The only thing that prevented wide spread worship of the Emperor as a God was him actively telling people don't worship or I'll punish you. Once he was interred on the Throne after killing Horus I doubt anyone could have prevented him becoming to be seen as a god.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It is a commonly accepted fact that the teachings of the Ecclessiarchy (and many of the other cults) were originally based on Lorgar's book Lectitio Divinitatus. It is on all the wikis, 1d4chan and I am pretty sure I must have read it in a BL book or 2. But now that I am searching for it, I can't find any actual evidence of this fact. Doesn't anyone have a source for this?

Nope, because there isn't any. The Lecititio Divinatus was introduced in Horus Rising as Lorgar's book that created a cult worshipping the Emperor as a god, and everyone assumed that it was the source of the Ecclesiarchy, since most people have never read the actual history of the Ecclesiarchy.

Lexicanum at least has the grace to say it's only "believed" to be the source, even though that belief is purely among players.

I think the reason for that is the Black Library authors for the Horus Heresy probably weren't aware of the fluff established back in the late 90's in the Sisters of Battle codex and/or wanted to change the fluff and/or didn't care. However the newer fluff in the Horus Heresy novels doesn't really contradict the older fluff in the 2nd Edition Codex: Sisters of Battle, and the fluff itself is from different time periods so I think it can all work nicely in together. The Lectitio Divinitatus being the root of the worship of the Emperor as a God pre-heresy, with the Temple of the Saviour Emperor evolving from that post-Heresy and eventually into the Adeptus Ministorum proper.

There is an origin thread linking the two:

The Lecticio Divinitatus was a broad-brush name for the cults inspired by Lorgar's scribblings which spread in the form of the pamphlets that pop up in the crusade fleets.

It's not "the origin of the Ecclesiarchy' except in the fashion that a lot of the core theological arguments the ecclesiarchy holds dear (from the days where it needed arguments beyond "believe what we say or we'll have you burned") were first written cogently and competently by Lorgar - the Lecticio doesn't have an organisational hierarchy beyond secretive cells of prayer meetings.

If you want to see an origin point for something more recognisable as the Temple of th Saviour Emperor itself, follow the Garro novels; Euphrati Keeler gets brought back to Terra with Garro, and encounters various things en route which begin to show that "The Emperor Protects" is more than just an empty platitude - that faith is actually an effective weapon against the warp.

It's not made entirely clear how, but Keeler absconds from the protective custody that a lot of the Eisenstein survivors are placed in - she's mentioned in passing as tying to find her is the reason Garro is 'busy' during the events of Vengeful Spirit, and he encounters whats-her-name the scribe and finds out about Malcador's plans for Titan in passing whilst doing the same thing.

What she's supposed to be doing is moving between the various terran orbital plates, hives and wastelands, prosletysing and preaching, and actually putting the various prayer groups in touch with one another, starting to knit together the disparate groups into a cogent whole which - as noted - is based (initially) on Terra and is likely to be powerful enough to start the initial groundswell of 'deification' immediately after the end of the siege and the enthronement.

There's a new short story (which I admit to not having read) where Garro catches up to her again.

I wouldn't be surprised to see her meet up with Sigismund at some point, as Dorn's champion has also (rather against Dorn's wishes) signed up with the God Squad.

locarno24 wrote:
There is an origin thread linking the two:

The Lecticio Divinitatus was a broad-brush name for the cults inspired by Lorgar's scribblings which spread in the form of the pamphlets that pop up in the crusade fleets.

It's not "the origin of the Ecclesiarchy' except in the fashion that a lot of the core theological arguments the ecclesiarchy holds dear (from the days where it needed arguments beyond "believe what we say or we'll have you burned") were first written cogently and competently by Lorgar - the Lecticio doesn't have an organisational hierarchy beyond secretive cells of prayer meetings.

If you want to see an origin point for something more recognisable as the Temple of th Saviour Emperor itself, follow the Garro novels; Euphrati Keeler gets brought back to Terra with Garro, and encounters various things en route which begin to show that "The Emperor Protects" is more than just an empty platitude - that faith is actually an effective weapon against the warp.

It's not made entirely clear how, but Keeler absconds from the protective custody that a lot of the Eisenstein survivors are placed in - she's mentioned in passing as tying to find her is the reason Garro is 'busy' during the events of Vengeful Spirit, and he encounters whats-her-name the scribe and finds out about Malcador's plans for Titan in passing whilst doing the same thing.

What she's supposed to be doing is moving between the various terran orbital plates, hives and wastelands, prosletysing and preaching, and actually putting the various prayer groups in touch with one another, starting to knit together the disparate groups into a cogent whole which - as noted - is based (initially) on Terra and is likely to be powerful enough to start the initial groundswell of 'deification' immediately after the end of the siege and the enthronement.

There's a new short story (which I admit to not having read) where Garro catches up to her again.

I wouldn't be surprised to see her meet up with Sigismund at some point, as Dorn's champion has also (rather against Dorn's wishes) signed up with the God Squad.

Yeah. Keeler was the one who got the ball rolling as far as the Imperial Cult/Creed becoming legit post-Heresy. It stands to reason that those secret prayer groups formed the basis of the various competing "Emperor Cults" that arose later.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The only thing that prevented wide spread worship of the Emperor as a God was him actively telling people don't worship or I'll punish you. Once he was interred on the Throne after killing Horus I doubt anyone could have prevented him becoming to be seen as a god.

No. The Emperor never, ever said that to anyone other than Lorgar and his Legion and, even then, that isn't actually the gist of the conversation. While he was walking around on Terra during the GC, the Emperor was surrounded by literally-millions of people in various cults that venerated him as a god. He made no move to stop them. The Emperor is not an arch-atheist, despite the slant of the HH series trying (badly) to make that point. The Emperor cultivated the image of a god-made-flesh, and even said as much to the Mechanicus in order to cement an alliance with them ("Yo, dudes, I am the Omnissiah, the Machine God in human form. Don't believe me? Watch this. 'Machine, heal thyself!' Freakin' miraculous, innit?").

Roboute did not create the Ecclesiarchy, that was regular human people with faith and influence, sometimes both, doing what humans do. It provided, and continues to provide, the social glue that holds the Imperium together. Despite all the differences between the various planets in the Imperium, one thing that all of them recognize is the divinity of the Emperor, and are unified in that belief.

When it came to Lorgar, the problem was not so much the religion, but the time Lorgar was taking in building temples on the worlds he and his legion conquered. The Word Bearers were intended to be a conquering force, sweeping through space taking world after world. Instead, they advanced at a snail's pace, spending far too long on each world they took ensuring the population came into compliance through the establishment of temples and religious centers. This was not what the Emperor intended, as he already had a group responsible for bringing conquered worlds into the fold, and needed the Word Bearers to pick up the pace. That they were building churches is incidental. They could have been building laboratories, factories, death camps, amusement parks or fortresses, it didn't matter... all that mattered is that they were not advancing as fast as the Emperor had ordered.

 Red Marine wrote:
As a strong unifier across vast distances nothing beats religion. Also as a tool religion would neatly explain the aliens in the warp(aka demons) & why they were bad. In a Justinian/Constintinian fashion I could very easily see Guilliman using religion as a crutch to rebuild & weld the empire together.

Codex was M32, Ecclesiarchy was M36 I THINK....

TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
As a strong unifier across vast distances nothing beats religion. Also as a tool religion would neatly explain the aliens in the warp(aka demons) & why they were bad. In a Justinian/Constintinian fashion I could very easily see Guilliman using religion as a crutch to rebuild & weld the empire together.

Codex was M32, Ecclesiarchy was M36 I THINK....

No. Ecclesiarchy was M32. Adepta Sororitas was M36.