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And if I give them Rune Shields, do they still get an attack? Silly question, I know, but I'm still trying to figure all of this out, and I want to build this army right the first time. Thanks.

Ultra Grey wrote:
And if I give them Rune Shields, do they still get an attack? Silly question, I know, but I'm still trying to figure all of this out, and I want to build this army right the first time. Thanks.

I don't think there's anything which says that they don't behave exactly like the other models. I've always played that way, though now that I think about it, it could be better the other way - reducing the effectiveness of a unit by one model to gain an ability.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I don't think there's anything which says that they don't behave exactly like the other models.

That's where the confusion sets in. In 40k, they would still get an attack in close combat, but AoS rules are moot on that point.

There is nothing in the unit desciption saying that models carrying instruments or standards are not armed with whatever. That's where it would be if so, so yeah I'd say they attack the same as the rest.

I went reading some warscrolls and looking at models, and basically:

* The wording simply says that a model can be an Icon Bearer or Hornblower, or whatever. There's nothing that says that every model in the unit can't be an Icon Bearer. In some units, there's a choice to be had between type types of Icon Bearers, and you could potentially have both in your army, gaining double the benefits. Because you choose which models to remove for damage, you don't need multiple Icon Bearers because you can always remove that model last. But you could say that every model is an Icon Bearer, seeing as it doesn't seem to be explicitly unique. You could have a model that is a leader, icon bearer, and hornblower? So it is basically a bonus that you always have with no downside. There is literally no reason to ever NOT have these options - so why are they options? Why don't they just make bravery 1 higher? Why go to 11? Just make 10 louder.

It seems obvious that the intent here is that the model you declare to be an Icon Bearer should explicitly be an Icon Bearer model, and you make the choice between one type and the other because the kits only have enough pieces to make one of them.

* Abilities apply to units as a whole, but not weapon abilities. So units with Runeshields all have Runeshields. The rules are worded like "If this unit has a Shield, then it has saves of 5+". So the whole unit benefits. Similarly, the rules are worded like "When a unit containing a horn blower runs, add 1" to the roll" - so the whole unit benefits from having a model of that type. However, this does not apply to weapons. "You can reroll hit rolls of 1 for Chaos Warriors wielding a pair of Chaos Hand Weapons". "Re-roll failed hit rolls for MODELS armed with two Fyresteel Handaxes". "If a hit roll for a Blighted Weapon is 6 or more, that attack..." "You can re-roll all failed hit rolls for MODELS that are armed with more than one Foetid Clade" - and so on. So models can have different weapons (1 in 5 can be armed with a Starsoul Mace), but not different shields.

So if you modeled an Standard Bearer without a shield, it'd still benefit from the shield rules. Whether that equally applies to weapons, especially for rules that say "models holding X in two hands", is unclear. It seems like it would be more complicated that way, and the rules tend to be more permissive than restrictive, but if you assume WYSIWYG for the model, it could also apply to its weapons?

* Some of the models have standards and weapons. For instance, the Chaos Knights have both glaives and shields with the standard, but the hornblower just has a shield. So the way these options affect the models would be different. The Chaos Knights would be unaffected by the standard, but would lose an attack with the hornblower. This makes the bearers/musicians of differing value to different units based on the model's design. It would've made things obvious if, for example, drummers had a weapon line for smacking people around with drumsticks - but they don't, which makes me think they share the same weapons as everyone else.

* One counter example is that the Plague Monks have their leaders being a Bringer-of-the-Word, and it explicitly lists the weapon options for that model, while icon bearer and whatnot don't. However, it could be because the Bringer-of-the-Word contains new weapons (and new weapon lines) not otherwise available to the unit. But it does put me in the mind that if AoS didn't want Standard Bearers to fight, they'd say it outright.

Yes, there is no penalty for having a standard bearer and musician (and champion) so there is no reason not to take them.

If you can have multiple standard bearers, take one of each too.

If you can have a special weapon and your champion gets an improved to hit/to wound or an extra attack, might as well give the special weapon to the champion. (This is the case with Stormcasts such as the Judicators).

Lastly, I would always play with them armed with the same equipment as the other members of the unit. The unit equipment options does not state they are armed differently except in the case of some champions which have options.

Thanks for the replies. That's pretty much what I figured it would be, so I'll take them.

GW removed any additional effects for having standard bearers and musicians in a unit, right?

 sing your life wrote:
GW removed any additional effects for having standard bearers and musicians in a unit, right?

No, it's just that there isn't a standard effect that a banner or musician has any more.
Like shields, a musician or standard are different from unit to unit.

By default? No, there is no penalty for fielding command. Command models fight normally. The benefits from banners and musicians are basically something that should be considered part of the unit's rules, and in many cases is key to establishing the mechanical theme of the faction.

There's also nothing preventing you from making every model a standard bearer or musician in units that have the option for any, except that casualties are removed by the defending player, so you can always choose to leave your unit command models till last anyway, so there's not much gained by it.

That said, some people do play with community written 'comp' systems, and some of these 'comp' systems make units more expensive to field with command. Personally I think that's a mistake...

But rather than get into a long diatribe about it, I'll just say that comp systems can add all sorts of wonky incentives, good and ill, and if you're just playing plain old games with your pals, you don't need to worry about it.

Standard bearers and horn blowers are cool to look at and should always be a part of your units..

From a points value, the choice could depend on the system.

Regarding whether it impacts attacks, saving throws, etc. This should depend on the specific wording of the war scroll, but I'm not aware offhand of any war scrolls that are impacted negatively by a standard bearer or musician.

Some of the yet to be updated war scrolls have wording that may be ambiguous, but the war scrolls from the battle tomes and grand alliance books are usually pretty clear.

It might look like it doesn't matter but I've found myself in the situation where while removing my slain models, not removing my standard bearer and champion forced me to disengage from a unit I was intentionally locking in combat because I wouldn't be withing 3" anymore.

You can find yourself in situation where placing them matter!

I always take them. They get the same weapon and shield bonuses of the squad they are in, and get the free upgrade and bonuses of the musician or standard.

For example, my tomb kings (yes they live on and still have official rules!!) Have awesome standards. Most allow you to revive 1 to d3 previously slain models from the unit in your hero phase. It is great to see your opponent's assault phase in which 3 tomb guard fall, or one necropolis knight, just to stand back up in your hero phase and fight back again in the next assault phase!!

God I love the tomb kings