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Howdy,

a group in our country is running tournaments in multiple cities, and we have our own tournament rules package. We have been thinking about a way to limit the power of deathstar units, as they are quite prevalent and they also kill the interaction in matches (the opponent just pretty much watches the deathstar do what it wants and rolls some dice; boring. ) The rest of the package is of no importance regarding my question.

There was an idea about limiting multiple Wound IC's to one per unit, but that is quite extreme and hurts stuff that isn't broken (Orks )

So I wonder if people on Dakka would have any ideas on limiting deathstars (mostly Necron, Wolves, Seer Council) indirectly, without silly rulings such as "Space Wolves can't have IC's join their units" ?

Universal ban on non-codex ICs joining units, first off. That gets rid of the Battle Brothers stupidity.

Edit: meant of a different faction.

Joining any units, or just a ban on joining units of a different faction?

For example, if I had (I know this is not a recipe for a deathstar - quick and dirty example only) two CADs, one of Sisters and one of Iron Hands, as such, with St. Celestine as my warlord (so the Sisters are the primary detachment):

Librarian
2x Tactical squad
Vanguard vets

St. Celestine
2x Battle Sister Squad
Seraphim

Would the Librarian be forbidden from joining the Vanguard or Tacticals, or just forbidden from joining any of the Sororitas units?

If it's the former, that's a serious overnerf. The latter, probably fine.

jade_angel wrote:
Joining any units, or just a ban on joining units of a different faction?

For example, if I had (I know this is not a recipe for a deathstar - quick and dirty example only) two CADs, one of Sisters and one of Iron Hands, as such, with St. Celestine as my warlord (so the Sisters are the primary detachment):

Librarian
2x Tactical squad
Vanguard vets

St. Celestine
2x Battle Sister Squad
Seraphim

Would the Librarian be forbidden from joining the Vanguard or Tacticals, or just forbidden from joining any of the Sororitas units?

If it's the former, that's a serious overnerf. The latter, probably fine.

Non-codex ICs

The Librarian is from the same codex as the Vanguards and Tacs, so he can join. He's a non-SOB codex IC, so he can't join the Sisters.

That makes sense. The confusion was in whether "non-codex" meant "not from the same codex as the primary detachment" or "not from the same codex as the unit that the IC is trying to join".

I wouldn't want that as a general house rule all the time, but for a tournament, to reduce the impact of death stars, yeah.

A very extreme solution might be something like banning all psykers attached to non-Troops, a limit of one Relic (or equivalent) per unit, regardless of what limits the codex imposes, etc. That's probably too much, though.

Just include a composition score in your tournament system, anything else will be too silly.

eliminate mixing of factions and most the problems with death stars are gone. It also goes further - like IG vets cant board a drop pod or wraithgard cant embark a raider. Would be good for the game.

General note:
Avoid using the words "codex" and "army" to avoid confusion.


mmm lets see.

Start with.
-IC's are allied of convenience at best for other detachments.
-No invisibility
-Max total Low/Superheavy cost 25% of the army
-The highest lv psyker in a unit is the only psyker who generates power dice and is able to cast powers. In case of a tie choose 1.

This gets rid of all deathstars I know and doesn't hurt orks that much.

Generally simply changing battle brothers to go down 1 tier prevents ICs from joining up with units outside of their faction/codex.

Example- Doing this makes it so Draigo cannot join to grav centurions with Tigurius, Now you don't have armies where half the cost is in one unit that teleports around invisible and fires massed grav at things. aka gravstar

This also limits crazy 2++/2++ cover save bike/thunder wolf ravenwing things.

Limiting re-rollable saves to be 2 worse than the original save, capped at 4+. This removes 2++ with a re-rollable 2++ saves for certain armies deathstars. (Eldar/Dark eldar and daemons)

Those two changes pretty much remove most popular internet combo deathstars from the game.

 oldzoggy wrote:
General note:
Avoid using the words "codex" and "army" to avoid confusion.


mmm lets see.

Start with.
-IC's are allied of convenience at best for other detachments.
-No invisibility
-Max total Low/Superheavy cost 25% of the army
-The highest lv psyker in a unit is the only psyker who generates power dice and is able to cast powers. In case of a tie choose 1.

This gets rid of all deathstars I know and doesn't hurt orks that much.

So basically, nerf Daemons into the ground because, "reasons".

The only psychic powers currently that are highly problematic are;
1. Invisibility
simple solution: enemy units shooting count as BS1/ in combat, enemies only hit on a 6+.
Templates become the go-to hard counter weapon, as they should have always been. The power itself now becomes more of an assault oriented augment. (WS1 is too much of a nerf really, since hitting on 5's isn't exactly a huge disadvantage... 6's on the other hand allow the power to also become a solid hard-counter to Deathstars themselves, as you'll tarpit it for a good few rounds!)

2. Conjurations
simple solution: only 1 unit may be successfully conjured per player turn. Keeps it in line with KDK's summoning and allows it to remain a viable tactic, but no more Clown Car.



As for neutering Deathstars...
1. IC's can only join other units from their parent codex. (ie: Draigo may only join units drawn from Codex: Grey Knights, Iron Priests may only join units from Codex: Space Wolves, etc...)
Similarly, in the case of Codex: Space Marines, IC's may only join units that share the same Chapter Tactic. (so no Severin Loth + Tiggy + IH's Gravcentstar stupidity)

2. The maximum value for a re-rolled invulnerable save is capped at 4++. (ie: a 3++/3++ becomes 3++/4++, while a 4++/5++ would stay as is, since the re-rolled save is worse)
Cover and armour saves don't need additional checks, as every single army in the game has multiple ways to outright ignore those. Re-rolled invulns however are a highly obnoxious perfect counter to everything bar a lucky Str.D shot!

Deathstars remain in the game, but lose a good deal of their most obnoxious teeth.

So basically, nerf Daemons into the ground because, "reasons".

"reasons" = Screamer star ( + seerstar and draigo star and all other sorts of multi psyker shenanigan units. )

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Just include a composition score in your tournament system, anything else will be too silly.

Composition score accomplishes little at the end of the day. Most people realize before a tournament begins that they stand little chance of winning, but they want to be seen as a "good" player. At the end of a tournament comp might mean a guy who wins a few games can't win the tournament, however, it does nothing for those folks he beat up with his list (and their general enjoyment).

 oldzoggy wrote:

So basically, nerf Daemons into the ground because, "reasons".

"reasons" = Screamer star ( + seerstar and draigo star and all other sorts of multi psyker shenanigan units. )

Then you put in checks & balances against those very few big offenders. You don't go and sledgehammer an entire codex into near unplayability.

That's effectively akin to killing a single spider by burning your entire house to the ground.

Ive been in tournaments where they have a different list for each round, or my favorite, you may run the same list for each round but each unit must have 2 things that are changed/different then last round.

You could do for each round 1 hing must be changed per unit and they may not match any previous build from a previous round. Granted i do also see how that can be hard for player/s and codex's. Still it would be fun and a challenge.

In my area, deaths tars aren't super prevalent in tournaments because of the tournament missions. We change tournament styles frequently, but the one I'm most familiar with (iirc) is ITC style. There are random objectives each turn that you score by doing things like having more units outside your deployment zone than your opponent, etc. If you have 50% of your points tied up in a death star, you're generally not throwing around a lot of units to score with.