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So, I'm using the 7th edition rules manual and the 2014 Wolves codex, building my first marine army. Relatively new player (second army, and first one hasn't seen real combat, just my roommate teaching me the rules), so I have a simple question:

Meltabombs and a few other grenades have the Assault rule on them. At minimum, the Metla Bomb and Krak grenades say, specifically, "unless used in an assault against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures [grenade type] has no effect", followed by a secondary profile that is clearly separated from their normal thrown grenade rule (which I assume is for during the Shooting phase). When used during assault phase for their intended purpose, are grenades and meltabombs one-use only for that round (I know they don't actually follow the Single Use rule), or can a unit with, say, 4 attacks USE four Metlabombs on one tank? If they ARE only one use for the round, does that eliminate the rest of the attacks that the unit can do?

I'm asking because, frankly, I'm trying to make the final decision between twin Frost Claws, a Storm bolter, and Meltabombs or a Frost Axe and Storm bolter on my HQ unit. Cosmetically, I like the claws better, but I need to know if using one meltabomb will completely cripple me. I mean, the Frost Axe will give me AP2, so I'm still bypassing all armor saves, and and because of the build, it's a Str 8 attack, just like the Meltas, but I'm trying not to go that route, because it just feels I'm being that guy'. "Oh, you have terminators? Roll your 5+ invulnerable save, because your armor is TOTALLY useless! BAHAHAHA!." But if using a Meltabomb is literally "Nope, you get ONE attack, even though you have an attack rating of 6 plus your dual wielding bonus", then I'll be 'that guy'.

What do you mean by "Assault rule"?

Each model may attack once against a vehicle by using a grenade. if that is what you are asking.

At the start of the grenade section the brb explains that only one attack may be made in assault with grenades (per model), regardless of any bonuses etc.

You can't use meltabombs against Terminators anyway, I don't understand your issue. They're only used against vehicles, MCs, and gun emplacements as you said. But yes, if you attack with a grenade/meltabombs you get one attack for that fight sub-phase.

Let's say you have an IC with 4 attacks, a sergeant with 2 attacks, and 4 tac marines with 1 attack each in their profiles.

If you made normal melee attacks that would be a total of 10 attacks for that round.

If you decided to use grenades instead you would get a total of 6 attacks as you would only be able to use one grenade per model.

Lusiphur wrote:
Let's say you have an IC with 4 attacks, a sergeant with 2 attacks, and 4 tac marines with 1 attack each in their profiles.

If you made normal melee attacks that would be a total of 10 attacks for that round.

If you decided to use grenades instead you would get a total of 6 attacks as you would only be able to use one grenade per model.

And to top that off: The unit as a whole can only throw (as a ranged Shooting Attack) a single grenade (of any type), and even that only if the grenade actually allows it. Melta bombs for example cant be thrown.

 DeathReaper wrote:
What do you mean by "Assault rule"?

Each model may attack once against a vehicle by using a grenade. if that is what you are asking.

"Assault 1" property of, say, Assault grenades. Meaning you can use the grenade in your Shooting phase and still Assault, per the manual.

Zarius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What do you mean by "Assault rule"?

Each model may attack once against a vehicle by using a grenade. if that is what you are asking.

"Assault 1" property of, say, Assault grenades. Meaning you can use the grenade in your Shooting phase and still Assault, per the manual.

That would be its 'Weapon Type'.

nekooni wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
Let's say you have an IC with 4 attacks, a sergeant with 2 attacks, and 4 tac marines with 1 attack each in their profiles.

If you made normal melee attacks that would be a total of 10 attacks for that round.

If you decided to use grenades instead you would get a total of 6 attacks as you would only be able to use one grenade per model.

And to top that off: The unit as a whole can only throw (as a ranged Shooting Attack) a single grenade (of any type), and even that only if the grenade actually allows it. Melta bombs for example cant be thrown.

So, if I understand you, does that mean that if I use a single grenade on that same IC with 4 attacks, that he doesn't get his other three attacks? I'm specifically referring to in Close Combat (assault phase)

Correct. If you use a Krak Grenade or Melta Bomb you only get one attack with that grenade, at initiate 1, and no other attacks for that round of combat.

You can only use Krak and Melta against Vehicles (of any type) and Monsterous/Greater Monsterous Creatures in close combat.

One member of a unit may throw a grenade in the shooting phase. Melta bombs cannot be used in this manner.

Example scenario:

A unit of 5 Tactical Marines; 4 squaddies and a Sergeant. All models are equipped with Frag and Krak Grenades, and the Sergeant has Melta Bombs.

The TAC squad is 6" from an Ork Trukk, which has an armor value of 10. The squad decides to shoot at the Trukk, with the intent of assaulting it afterwords. The squad gets 4 Bolt Pistol shots and throws one grenade (probably Krak because Frag can't hurt the Trukk). The squad then charges the Trukk. Each of the four squaddies may either punch the Trukk twice (+1 attack for charging) at strength 4, or may make one attack each at strength 6 with their Krak grenades. The Sergeant has the option of making 3 str4 "punches," 1 str6 Krak grenade attack, or 1 str8 Melta Bomb attack.

GreenShoes wrote:
Correct. If you use a Krak Grenade or Melta Bomb you only get one attack with that grenade, at initiate 1, and no other attacks for that round of combat.

You can only use Krak and Melta against Vehicles (of any type) and Monsterous/Greater Monsterous Creatures in close combat.

One member of a unit may throw a grenade in the shooting phase. Melta bombs cannot be used in this manner.

Example scenario:

A unit of 5 Tactical Marines; 4 squaddies and a Sergeant. All models are equipped with Frag and Krak Grenades, and the Sergeant has Melta Bombs.

The TAC squad is 6" from an Ork Trukk, which has an armor value of 10. The squad decides to shoot at the Trukk, with the intent of assaulting it afterwords. The squad gets 4 Bolt Pistol shots and throws one grenade (probably Krak because Frag can't hurt the Trukk). The squad then charges the Trukk. Each of the four squaddies may either punch the Trukk twice (+1 attack for charging) at strength 4, or may make one attack each at strength 6 with their Krak grenades. The Sergeant has the option of making 3 str4 "punches," 1 str6 Krak grenade attack, or 1 str8 Melta Bomb attack.

Well, that answers my question, thank you. I could handle getting one grenade/meltabomb, but loosing the rest of my combat doesn't work, not against a tank.

Zarius wrote:

Well, that answers my question, thank you. I could handle getting one grenade/meltabomb, but loosing the rest of my combat doesn't work, not against a tank.

Meltabombs are for guys that don't have weapons able to hurt tanks. So if you have Lightning Claws on your Sergeant, you'll have very weak S4 attacks that only glance on a 6. Swapping 4 of those for a single S8AP1 attack would improve your chances of blowing that tank up drastically - glancing on 2+ vs most vehicles AND getting +2 to the pen result roll - all that for 5 points. Sure, a Power Fist is better, but it costs much more than the bomb-

To correct the above - you strike at your normal initiative with Krak grenades. Meltabombs strike at I1 only because they have the "Unwieldy" rule on their melee profile. THey also cannot be "thrown" in the shooting phase as they lack a shooting profile.

Well, that answers my question, thank you. I could handle getting one grenade/meltabomb, but loosing the rest of my combat doesn't work, not against a tank.

To be honest, since the entire squad gets to use krak grenades, you tend to find they're more than good enough - 10 marines gives you 10 attacks - normally 6 hits, and with rear armour 10 on most tanks, 3 points of damage - which is a dead tank.

You only really need to worry if either (a) it's a land raider - with 4 hull points and rear armour 14, or (b) it's a walker and you've got to punch through front armour (and it's punching back!).

Which is why meltabombs on the sergeant are useful. If you've got a Strength 8 axe, you're probably fine; S8 can slam through AV12, which is the majority of walkers.

If they ARE only one use for the round, does that eliminate the rest of the attacks that the unit can do?

No. Nothing requires you to use grenades if you don't want to, and models NOT using grenades can attack normally.

so if you've got two dudes with power fists, two with power axes and four dudes with just chainblades, the latter six can use krak grenades whilst the former two swing power fists.....

or, if facing a more lightly armoured target, the S5 axes might be a better choice - you can alter this on a round-by-round basis.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
To correct the above - you strike at your normal initiative with Krak grenades. Meltabombs strike at I1 only because they have the "Unwieldy" rule on their melee profile. THey also cannot be "thrown" in the shooting phase as they lack a shooting profile.

Ah, yes, that is correct. Playing IG I have very limited experience with Krak grenades hah.

locarno24 wrote:

Well, that answers my question, thank you. I could handle getting one grenade/meltabomb, but loosing the rest of my combat doesn't work, not against a tank.

To be honest, since the entire squad gets to use krak grenades, you tend to find they're more than good enough - 10 marines gives you 10 attacks - normally 6 hits, and with rear armour 10 on most tanks, 3 points of damage - which is a dead tank.

You only really need to worry if either (a) it's a land raider - with 4 hull points and rear armour 14, or (b) it's a walker and you've got to punch through front armour (and it's punching back!).

Which is why meltabombs on the sergeant are useful. If you've got a Strength 8 axe, you're probably fine; S8 can slam through AV12, which is the majority of walkers.

If they ARE only one use for the round, does that eliminate the rest of the attacks that the unit can do?

No. Nothing requires you to use grenades if you don't want to, and models NOT using grenades can attack normally.

so if you've got two dudes with power fists, two with power axes and four dudes with just chainblades, the latter six can use krak grenades whilst the former two swing power fists.....

or, if facing a more lightly armoured target, the S5 axes might be a better choice - you can alter this on a round-by-round basis.

OK, ok, hang on, now... ALL of my units in a melee attack can use a grenade, if they have one? So, example, let's say I'm using my Wolf Scouts against an enemy tank. Let's assume I have 10 scouts in the unit (max). ONE can throw a frag or Krak grenade during the shooting phase, if within 8", but once they close with the enemy into melee, such as to destroy a friggin' tank, all TEN of my scouts can hit it with Kraks? Would that be correct?? I'm asking because the manual states

"When a unit armed with assault grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose
to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon."

So, I kinda assumed that it carried over to the assault phase (even though it doesn't actually SAY that it does). I'm used to later rules being amendments to previous rules, not replacements. that actually flags a couple of other questions, but they aren't related, so I'll just make a new thread.

Why would rules for shooting carry over to close combat? Shooting rules apply to the Shooting phase and close combat rules apply to the Assault phase.

 Ghaz wrote:
Why would rules for shooting carry over to close combat? Shooting rules apply to the Shooting phase and close combat rules apply to the Assault phase.

Now I feel silly. That makes too much sense I guess now I just have to wonder WHY only one unit can chuck an explosive, if I can have them all swarm the same tank.

Why only one *model* can chuck a grenade

If you want fluff reasons for it, think of it like this, In order to throw a grenade you would want to use a proper throwing motion which can leave you open to enemy fire, so one guy is throwing the grenade while everyone else is providing cover fire.

While for Close combat, everyone swarms the tank, sticking them to various spots or stuffing them in openings hoping ones disable the tank (Like the sticky bombs at the end of Saving Private Ryan)