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Hello all!

Well, like so many others, I have been considering diving into the task of possibly creating my own 40k rule set. I've been bouncing around a few concepts and figured I'd bring one up for input...

I was considering using initiative to also dictate movement and shooting order, similar to how X-Wing tabletop uses pilot skill. For those of you who don't know, in X-Wing the highest skill pilots move last, and shoot first, essentially allowing elite pilots to first see what the less skilled pilots are doing, then get the first shot off.

For Warhammer 40k I was considering a similar system to put in place, units with lower initiative moving first and shooting last, while high initiative units moved last and shot first.

I find this an interesting concept as it could give truly elite units a bit of a boost, while more effectively representing fluff (an assassin trained to kill from birth would be able to "predict" the movements of lesser skilled Guardsmen and Orks, being able to move in response to their movements then get the first shot off.) Obviously there are situations where units on opposing sides will have identical initiatives and that will have to be resolved, that could be performed either at the beginning of the turn via dice role or by some other means - other words I will develop a fair way to resolve that, but it's not my primary focus as of now.

As of now in 40k this system obviously wouldn't work out so well, as the initiative system is not at all set up for the above concept, really I'm thinking of utilizing the idea in a larger rework of the rules.


Let me sum up everything briefly:
Low initiative units move first, shoot last.
High initiative units move last, shoot first.
Each game turn would start with the movement of the lowest initiative units, moving up one initiative level at a time until everything has moved.
During the shooting phase the highest initiative units shoot first, moving down one initiative level at a time until everything has fired.
Again, this would be part of a larger re-work/re-write


So, any thoughts in regards to the above proposed system in a large game of 40k? Any and all input will be appreciated.

With the current initivevalues orks are screwed terribly and eldar are boosted drastically. In addition melee units become the best at shooting.

You are saying it's part of a broader rework. OK. But until I see a couple units converted to the rework I won't know anything about any of that.

You bring up a good point there, I've been thinking about that (Orks specifically believe it or not) and how make it work, also as to how it would effect melee.

I don't have my Guard codex on hand so let me create some example real quick, just food for thought nothing final:

Conscripts, Grots, maybe cultists?: Initiative 2

Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, Tau Fire Warrior, other typical grunt infantry: Initiative 3

Guard Veterans, Pathfinders, Nobz, other above average units: Initiative 4

Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other "average" super soldiers, low level special forces: Initiative 5

Tau Stealth Suits, Terminators, other special forces/elite units: Initiative 6

Characters, Heros, Demi-gods: Initiative 7 up to 10.


Overall the above is a very brief mock up, again nothing final. Another thought of mine was in regards to melee units: Units like Terminators would benefit from "quicker" shooting, but rules like "Unwieldy" would maintain their slow melee status.

Unwieldy only applies to some weapons. Not all models. You are also applying MORE special rules to units to help cover the deficiencies in the new mechanic. A sure sign that the mechanic should head back to the drawing board.

A good mechanic should work seamlessly or as near seamlessly as possible. Personally I am a fan of alternating activations. Pick a unit, do all its things next player picks a unit, does all its things, etc etc... Until all units are activated.

I should probably prepare some further concepts prior to the presentation of individual ideas then, long term goals are to create a somewhat simpler rule set and to hopefully provide more tactical options.

This initiative concept is not designed with current initiative values in mind. As always I must emphasize; just throwing ideas around at this point, if this were final I wouldn't be asking for input on making it work.

Second note: classifying the units in the way that you are also creates both a inherent advantage to some armies over others (Marines over guard) while making the tau who are the greatest shooters into weaker shooters.

It also creates a much more drastic gap in the "weak" units vs the strong or specialized units. In x wing there is no limit on number of ships and no foc to follow. Pilot skill is a large part of cost per ship.

In 40k you would need to reprice the units heavily based on initiative. Then you would need to consider their position on the foc and how many of each you can bring. Pricing them not only initiative to initiative but initiative to initiative within their foc slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
I should probably prepare some further concepts prior to the presentation of individual ideas then, long term goals are to create a somewhat simpler rule set and to hopefully provide more tactical options.

This initiative concept is not designed with current initiative values in mind. As always I must emphasize; just throwing ideas around at this point, if this were final I wouldn't be asking for input on making it work.

No problem! Always glad to bounce ideas around. You should keep in mind that you want people to poke holes in all your ideas. It's the best way to find unforseen problems and refine those ideas into a workable system. all my critisims are here to help.

Lance845 wrote:
Second note: classifying the units in the way that you are also creates both a inherent advantage to some armies over others (Marines over guard) while making the who are the greatest shooters into weaker shooters.

It also creates a much more drastic gap in the "weak" units vs the strong or specialized units. In x wing there is no limit on number of ships and no foc to follow. Pilot skill is a large part of cost per ship.

In 40k you would need to reprice the units heavily based on initiative. Then you would need to consider their position on the foc and how many of each you can bring. Pricing them not only initiative to initiative but initiative to initiative within their foc slot.

That good sir, is an excellent point.

You could drop, or curtail, Battle Focus with these rules.

It'd make I feel more like what it is. Those bugs would be scary fast, whereas Orks would be the Green Tide.

Tau aren't as hosed as it seems. Sure, the opponent gets to move after Tau do, and shoot first, but Tau pack more firepower, and have longer range. So force them to come to you. Their Suits, though, might need a little help. Either bump their I, or allow the JSJ to be before or after the shooting (like Battle Focus today).

Orks also aren't as hosed as it seems. They'll still need a rebalance, but it really depends on how you do Runs and/or Charges. For instance, if you allow both during Movement, it might balance things out.

Let's say we do that - what about something like this?
Also, you can Run if you don't Shoot, for d6"
Also, you can Charge even if you run, but Charge is always just D6 - and you move even if you fail charge.

Think about Orks vs SM:
-If SM move into Rapid Fire range, next turn Orks move up 6", run d6", and charge d6" - before SM get to shoot *or* move! So you need at most 6" on 2d6.
-If SM move away, they can single-tap, but the orks move up 6+2d6. So, instead of ending the turn d6" closer like now, they instead move 2d6" closer.

For the larger re-write I was considering allowing units to run and charge the same turn, you bring up some good points in regards to how charge rules could be adjusted.

Also charges taking place in the movement phase, this could be an interesting way to handle things in regards to the proposed initiative movement order. That melee focused units such as boyz or Hormagaunts (units that would typically feature low initiatives in the rewrite) could suddenly get the jump on higher initiative units such as Marines.

Lots of stuff to write up, and test.

I'm not so sure my adjustment is a good idea, but it may be worth iterating on.

Why would Hormagaunts be low I? They are fast, jittery bugs. Their speed is a lot of what makes them scary!

I'd advise you not go too far with Plot Armor Initiative. Sure, SM Chapter Masters should have greater presence than a Banshee, for example, but they shouldn't be *faster* than a Banshee.

The I stat gets really odd at higher levels. Why is a DP so high, compared to so many other "super fast" things? Why is the average Archon just as fast as Baharoth, the fastest of the Phoenix Lords? Because of the nature of the fluff, its hard to get it all right. But obviously it's not all perfect now.

Instead of initiative, what about Leadership determining activation order?

That would make the slow, plodding Necrons be super fast and reactive.

If you want to improve the level of player interaction by breaking up unit actions/activation.
Then I think most people would see the benefit of this.

However, it is not advisable to use any of the current stat values for any other perpose than that they currently perform.

The order models fight in close combat, is of limited use in games with a higher level of player interaction.
And so to replace the initiative stat for a new stat that sets the level of interaction in the new game turn is a good idea.IMO.

I never really understood why they don't allow units to run and charge on the same turn. Assault is already weak in the game. Allowing assault units to use the shooting phase to help close the gap I think fixes a lot for them.

@Lance845.
I can totally understand why you would propose allowing assault units to move run and assault .(Especially if you own an assault focused army.)

However, if you look back over older editions of 40k .You can see how the devs tried altering this sort of thing to improve balance between shooting and assault.
Unfortunately this is because all the elements that allow 'fine tuning' between assault and shooting found in other battle games, are not in 40k core rules.(Suppression , tactical use of smoke etc, and wider and more detailed morale mechanics.)

As most games of 40k ,the units start about 12" apart.Currently units tend to suffer 2 to 3 turns of shooting before they get into assault.
Allowing standard infantry assault units to move run and assault for 18" would mean most units would get into assault after suffering only one turn of shooting.

This would buff assault to make it the focus of the rules again.(Until the next 'correction' swings it back to favor shooting again. )