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Which of these would you find more challenging to defeat with your take on all comers list?

List 1

2000 Pts - Codex: Grey Knights Roster - 2000 - NSF + AD [AM] - Pask

: Nemesis Strike Force (8#, 850 pts)
1 Librarian, 165 pts (Melta Bombs; Warlord)
1 Domina Liber Daemonica

1 Terminator Squad, 460 pts
1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave)
4 Grey Knight Terminators (Nemesis Daemonhammer)
1 Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-melta)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 225 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Incinerator; Heavy Psycannon; Nemesis Greatsword)

: Allied Detachment (19#, 1150 pts)
1 Leman Russ Command Squadron (HQ) [Mil], 520 pts
1 Knight Commander Pask's Leman Russ Punisher [Mil] (Heavy Bolter Spoonsons)
1 Leman Russ Vanquisher [Mil] (Lascannon)
1 Leman Russ Vanquisher [Mil] (Lascannon)

1 Veteran Squad (Troops) [Mil], 160 pts
9 Veteran [Mil] (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant [Mil]
1 Chimera [Mil] (Heavy Flamer; Multilaser; Heavy Stubber)

1 Leman Russ Squadron (Heavy) [Mil], 470 pts
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank [Mil]
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank [Mil]
1 Leman Russ Demolisher [Mil]

Total Roster Cost: 2000

List 2

2000 Pts - Codex: Grey Knights Roster - 2000 - CAD [GK] + AD [AM] + Executioner

: Combined Arms Detachment (14#, 1240 pts)
1 Grand Master, 205 pts (Warlord)
1 The Soul Glaive

1 Terminator Squad, 190 pts
1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave)
2 Grey Knight Terminators
2 Grey Knight Terminators (Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Terminator Squad, 190 pts
1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Warding Stave)
2 Grey Knight Terminators
2 Grey Knight Terminators (Nemesis Daemonhammer)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 225 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Incinerator; Heavy Psycannon; Nemesis Greatsword)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 225 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Incinerator; Heavy Psycannon; Nemesis Greatsword)

1 Nemesis Dreadknight, 205 pts (Personal Teleporter; Heavy Psycannon; Nemesis Greatsword)

: Allied Detachment (16#, 760 pts)
1 Leman Russ Command Squadron (HQ) [Mil], 600 pts
1 Knight Commander Pask's Leman Russ Punisher [Mil] (Heavy Bolter Spoonsons)
1 Leman Russ Executioner [Mil] (Plasma cannon Spoonsons)
1 Leman Russ Executioner [Mil] (Plasma cannon Spoonsons)

1 Veteran Squad (Troops) [Mil], 160 pts
9 Veteran [Mil] (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant [Mil]
1 Chimera [Mil] (Heavy Flamer; Multilaser; Heavy Stubber)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

A Storm Raven will serve you very well in both lists, as right now you're a bit lacking in air defense other than Pask, which even with umpteen rending shots, he can be a bit of a crap shoot against flyers. Sadly, Land Raiders just aren't what they used to be, thanks to our friends grav and D, plus their inability to re roll terrain checks and simple expense. If you're running Nemesis Strike Force, I think you're better off taking advantage of turn one DS and using your 250~ points elsewhere.

As far as other points, the GM in the second list would be well served by a Pycannon. Twenty points, and it takes good advantage of his BS5 and relentless. If you like, you can roll him on Div and put him in either 5 Paladins with 2 psycannon, or ten termies with same. 12 TL Str 7 Rending shots will leave even the toughest units worse for wear. He's not very well loved given the sheer efficiency of our librarians, but stat wise, a ML 2 Space Marine Chapter Master is nothing to be scoffed at.

Alright, I'm looking at these lists and a few things jump out to me, though I'm newer so take this with a grain of salt.

1. The Land Raider in your first list is fairly pointless. It means right off the bat you are not making use of your FOC for your eligible units. It is further negated because your Librarian can fish for Gate of Infinity pretty easily, which is what I am assuming since you took the Liber.

2. In the second list, you have an underequipped Dreadknight. I think you would be better served using his points to pick up a Librarian (remember, the FOC let's you have 2 HQ's). First, our Librarians are incredibly efficient for what they give you. Second, getting a Librarian and putting it with a Terminator squad let's you ditch a force warding staff on one of your Justicars. Since the Librarian is also cheaper than the Dreadknight, you now have some bonus points for outfitting your other units.

Great tips from both of you.

I do think I will do the psycannon on the HQ idea it def works better.

I also think swapping a dreadknight for a librarian is an ok choice in the second list however then it goes against the concept of the list. Which is my fault for not detailing the battle strategy on either list.

In my defense however I wasn't asking for changes but rather for a discussion on how you guys feel your own TAC lists would fare against my own. Which neither of you answered. However all is not lost as you provided some sound logical advice which I shall heed in other variations

With that said here are the BATTLE STRATEGIES for both list

1. This is a TANK RUSH that's 7 AV14 bodies for the opponent to deal with that's the reason the Land Raider is there instead of a Raven. That's why the shorter range of the punisher and demolisher tanks don't really matter because I intend to move all tanks forward while shooting down threats. I'm going for an in your face approach that essentially dares the opponent to deal with all that AV14. In previous trials where I played guard with as many Leman Russes as I could fit, I found they were incredibly vulnerable to assaults, and the GK are there to pretty much deal with anything that comes close enough to try and assault from the Redeemer's flamers to the terminators/dreadknight.


2. This is a DreadKnight RUSH with support from everything else in the army. The dreadknights shunt to the opponents face turn 1 and all hell breaks loose, terminators deep strike in to cover any areas needing attention or support and the tanks support the dreadknights taking down targets as necessary. This is why I don't wish to swap one for a librarian since it defeats the concept of the list itself even though it could very well be an improvement.

Fair enough, we both missed that one.

For the first list, hordes of AV14 is hard for any TAC to deal with. It's like running an Imperial Knight Army: either your opponent will have the tools to deal with it or they won't. You've converted a chunk of the game into rock-paper-scissors. I say this as a guy who tries to field an Imperial Knight Army. In that respect, your list is fine as long as you know the risk going into it. You have plenty of Grey Knight units to counter-charge and pre-emptively engage with, though I would still recommend ditching the Raider for a Librarian just because of the power of Gate of Infinity. Remember, with Rites of Teleportation you can move and shoot after Gating. This will let your squad quickly cover the table and get where they need to be to protect your vehicles.

As for the second list, in light of your desired battle tactic, we have to change the advice. Now we shouldn't scrap our under equipped Dreadknight, we should scrap something else to get him a second gun. My recommendation would be to ditch the GM with Soul Glaive and get the Librarian with Liber. You should have enough points left-over to throw a Psilencer or Psycannon on the Dreadknight. I personally think Psilencers are criminally undervalued.

As for how they would do against my TAC list, I would say the odds are definitely in your favor on List 1. That is just so much heavy armor to have to punch through. I would need to take down a handful of selected targets and just focus on playing the Maelstrom point game. Even if I got something like Vortex on the Librarian I would still need favorable rolling or superior strategy to beat that list.

For List 2, I would say it's more vulnerable to a TAC. Being able to instantly kill Nemesis Dreadknights with Force weapons is a major boon to disabling the heart of the list. Since my TAC is also Grey Knights, the switch from heavy AV to monstrous creatures should put the odds as much in my favor as they were in your favor for List 1.

Audustum wrote:
Fair enough, we both missed that one.

For the first list, hordes of AV14 is hard for any TAC to deal with. It's like running an Imperial Knight Army: either your opponent will have the tools to deal with it or they won't. You've converted a chunk of the game into rock-paper-scissors. I say this as a guy who tries to field an Imperial Knight Army. In that respect, your list is fine as long as you know the risk going into it. You have plenty of Grey Knight units to counter-charge and pre-emptively engage with, though I would still recommend ditching the Raider for a Librarian just because of the power of Gate of Infinity. Remember, with Rites of Teleportation you can move and shoot after Gating. This will let your squad quickly cover the table and get where they need to be to protect your vehicles.

As for the second list, in light of your desired battle tactic, we have to change the advice. Now we shouldn't scrap our under equipped Dreadknight, we should scrap something else to get him a second gun. My recommendation would be to ditch the GM with Soul Glaive and get the Librarian with Liber. You should have enough points left-over to throw a Psilencer or Psycannon on the Dreadknight. I personally think Psilencers are criminally undervalued.

As for how they would do against my TAC list, I would say the odds are definitely in your favor on List 1. That is just so much heavy armor to have to punch through. I would need to take down a handful of selected targets and just focus on playing the Maelstrom point game. Even if I got something like Vortex on the Librarian I would still need favorable rolling or superior strategy to beat that list.

For List 2, I would say it's more vulnerable to a TAC. Being able to instantly kill Nemesis Dreadknights with Force weapons is a major boon to disabling the heart of the list. Since my TAC is also Grey Knights, the switch from heavy AV to monstrous creatures should put the odds as much in my favor as they were in your favor for List 1.

Great response that was pretty much the kind i was looking for with perspective from another player's point of view . As for the underequipped knight he has a psycannon i would love to give him an incinerator but I don't have the bits to complete a second gun because i bought that one used from someone else. So i need to buy the extra gun bits for him which I dont feel like doing because even though the incinerator IS my weapon of choice i think i can get by without it for him. Since i'm aiming rather for specific themes rather than WAAC list building I don't feel it is an absolute must, even though I agree with your judgement and by all means if i had the bits this guy would have his incinerator already.

I keep hearing psilencers are good and they do seem like a solid choice IF and only IF you are facing down armies that have MCs or multiwound models vulnerable to ID. My main opponent is SM, AM and Tau so I don't feel that it will be of any use. Tau doesnt have MCs in his lineup and Crisis Team arent that huge of a threat to warrant a weapon just for them.

I like your idea about using Gate for mobility however there's one huge problem with that plan. The land raider allows me to disembark and assault where as if i used gate to counter-charge i'd have to sit and only shoot for a turn. And also there's no guarantee that i'll get Gate. Overall the raider fits the AV14 theme, allows easy counter assaults and the flamers means that most infantry that will try to assault will think twice about getting near the other vehicles with a raider patrolling the middle and flaming both ways.

But every plan is perfect until it hits the field so until i've play tested this is as much as I can theoryhammer out