Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i encountered a tricky situation in my last match (see pro painted picture below): there was this nasty tank squadron with pask and close by a squad of veterans. I charged in with my CCB attacking the tank squadron and then decided to better have those pesky veterans with their *S5 granade thingy* locked into combat too, so they couldnt kill my CCB (down to AV11) so i multicharged with some wraith at the oposite site of the tanks, into the tanks and the veterans. The CCB was further than 2'' away from the vets.

http://imgur.com/0lDHlKh

My opponent then claimed that the Vets and the CCB are in the same close combat, since the Wraith connected the combat between the tanks and the CCB with them, and piled in to the CCB killing it with his pesky granades. I assumed it would be two different close combats. I did search for a rule stating that a charging unit becomes engaged with every enemy unit if it charges into a CC but i cant find it. (Was there on in 6th?)

The rules for piling in and attack allocation both have the restriction to "enemies within the same combat" but i cant happen to find a definition for same combat....
Pls help me out here. (An pls quote rules in your arguments, since i gues this is one of the points everyone "obvioulsy knows" how its played, but cant put a finger on the correct rules - or i just blatantly overlooked something)

Merry thanks to this awsome forum in advance!

Edit: how do i add a picture directly?

THis is a multiple combat, as the wraiths attacked botht eh tank unit and the veterans unit.

Dont charge the tank unit with the wraiths, and the vets couldnt have done anything.

It is a multiple combat between the wraith, the tanks and the vets. Why is the CCB part of that combat?

Im not getting mad and write in caps, but give me a chain of rule quotes that proove what you are saying or dont say anything.

Because the CCB is in combat with the tanks

It is all one big combat.

Read up on "Multiple Combats", come back if you have specific questions

Why is it one big multiple combat and not one multi combat between the wrait the tanks and the vets and one normal combat between the ccb and the tanks? Tell me the RULE that makes the normal combat between the CCB and the Tanks into a multi combat with the formerly irrelevant vets, if i charge the vets and the tanks. Again i know were suposed to play it this way but i cant find the RULE that states it.

Have you read the rule governing multiple combats? They "WHY" is answered clearly in there.

Think of it this way. Each PEN / GLANCE on the tanks counts towads combat res, s oyour CCB lord can cause the vets to lose horribly without even taking any wounds from the CCB

Despite of your rude and imo inappropriate passive aggresive behaviour ill give the answer myselfe: i guessed right, i indeed overlooked an important part of the rules: the very first paragraph below the "Multiple Combats". It says "Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.". This shows that RAI combats are transitiv . It still has some loop holes like when does an ongoing combat start, but the RAI is sufficent for my needs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do i mark this as solved, or lock it?

just quoting 1st paragraph of multiple combats Directing attacks at Fight sub-phase.

"A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit"

Since the Vets are only engaged with the Wraiths they can only choose to attack them

Wraiths can choose to attack either Vets or Tank, or just split attacks

CCB can only attack the Tank.

At least that's what i understand

Lord Perversor wrote:
just quoting 1st paragraph of multiple combats Directing attacks at Fight sub-phase.

"A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit"

Since the Vets are only engaged with the Wraiths they can only choose to attack them

Wraiths can choose to attack either Vets or Tank, or just split attacks

CCB can only attack the Tank.

At least that's what i understand

This is true, but the vets can choose to pile in towards the CCB thus getting in base contact and engaged with the CCB to use their grenades on it. There would be some vets that have to pile in towards the wraiths and thus would have to attack the wraiths.

Your opponent isn't wrong, in that the combat between the 4 factions is considered as one, big fight.

The trick is that when choosing which unit to fight, a unit is obligated to pile in toward the closest enemy unit.

In this particular case, based on the drawing, if the vets were all closer to the wraiths than the CCB, than they would be obligated to fight the wraiths.

But if the CCB charged at such an angle where some vets were equidistant from the wraiths and the CCB, some could pile in toward the CCB.

But if you're looking for direct rules quote, go with these from the multiple combats paragraph:

"• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.

• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect)."

In this particular case, the vets are engaged with both the wraiths and the CCB, and they could try to pile in toward the CCB on their initiative step, if it's within 3".

But, the vets would have to attack the unit they are closest or in B2B contact with. There's a diagram in the rulebook with space marines and eldar in the multiple combats section that covers this.



All in all, the answer to your original question, can the vets attack the CCB is "yes" - If some vet models were within 3" of the CCB and closer to the CCB than the wraiths. And even if they were, only some of the vets could attack the CCB - those in B2B contact and those within 2" of those that are. The rest have to attack the wraiths.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Your opponent isn't wrong, in that the combat between the 4 factions is considered as one, big fight.

The trick is that when choosing which unit to fight, a unit is obligated to pile in toward the closest enemy unit.

In this particular case, based on the drawing, if the vets were all closer to the wraiths than the CCB, than they would be obligated to fight the wraiths.

But if the CCB charged at such an angle where some vets were equidistant from the wraiths and the CCB, some could pile in toward the CCB.

But if you're looking for direct rules quote, go with these from the multiple combats paragraph:

"• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.

• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect)."

In this particular case, the vets are engaged with both the wraiths and the CCB, and they could try to pile in toward the CCB on their initiative step, if it's within 3".

But, the vets would have to attack the unit they are closest or in B2B contact with. There's a diagram in the rulebook with space marines and eldar in the multiple combats section that covers this.



All in all, the answer to your original question, can the vets attack the CCB is "yes" - If some vet models were within 3" of the CCB and closer to the CCB than the wraiths. And even if they were, only some of the vets could attack the CCB - those in B2B contact and those within 2" of those that are. The rest have to attack the wraiths.

What he said.

Theprogramm- if it is rude, hit the yellow triangle of friendship


However, it worked - you actually reread the section to find it did, indeed, have the answer all along...